Consensus needed... could get ugly.

Smoke

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I hesitate to open this Pandoras Box. But that has never stopped me before.

This is probably a stupid question but here goes.


Unless the rules state something different, when an orginazation offers a contest with no rules is the object being entered judged or the entrant?

For the life of me I can't figure out how this can be so hard.
 
Ok i'll bite. The object clearly is the one that SHOULD be judged.
 
Thanks Nathan


but....I got to tell you just the fact that Gary Wood is the first out of the box with a thanks from a man who has spent a life time developing material says it all. And Gary Wood is not one for the lime light nor in your face. He just does quality work without expecting anything in return.

Bravo.
 
It's early but I have the slam dunk for a little later after some more posts. It came to me just a few minutes ago when I went over to another forum for a peek.
 
[/I], when an orginazation offers a contest with no rules is the object being entered judged or the entrant?

I always thought it was both.
 
Which is more important......the object or the negative space around the object?
 
Unless the rules state something different, when an orginazation offers a contest with no rules is the object being entered judged or the entrant?

For me it is the object.

BUT, personally, I want the attached accomplishment and pride that goes with it. Call me vain :o (or whatever) but I find no pleasure in my tree winning if the work was done by others. Maybe it will change later but this is what I believe now.
 
My thought is they are equally important. Neither would exist if it wasn't for the other defining it.
 
I think I get your point and I'm with you 100%. The exception would be if the tree was entered into a new talent competition to determine who's the best up and coming bonsai artist. Then I would say it is still the tree being judged but its important that it was authentic to the person submitting it otherwise it would be fraud. Don't know why people get so bent on this subject. Everyone would like to own one of your fat little shohin tridents but then what just tuck it away on their bench and never be able to show it because they didn't propagate it from seed? We have a few "collectors" here in so cal that have amassed decent collections at this point and it would be a shame if they were never shown because they didn't "make" them
 
I think I get your point and I'm with you 100%. The exception would be if the tree was entered into a new talent competition to determine who's the best up and coming bonsai artist. Then I would say it is still the tree being judged but its important that it was authentic to the person submitting it otherwise it would be fraud. Don't know why people get so bent on this subject. Everyone would like to own one of your fat little shohin tridents but then what just tuck it away on their bench and never be able to show it because they didn't propagate it from seed? We have a few "collectors" here in so cal that have amassed decent collections at this point and it would be a shame if they were never shown because they didn't "make" them
Actually, multiple people working on one object happens quite a bit in the art world. An artist may only make a maquette (small model) and a team of people bring the work to fruition. It takes a village. How about the credits at the end of the movie.
 
I think I get your point and I'm with you 100%. The exception would be if the tree was entered into a new talent competition to determine who's the best up and coming bonsai artist. Then I would say it is still the tree being judged but its important that it was authentic to the person submitting it otherwise it would be fraud. Don't know why people get so bent on this subject. Everyone would like to own one of your fat little shohin tridents but then what just tuck it away on their bench and never be able to show it because they didn't propagate it from seed? We have a few "collectors" here in so cal that have amassed decent collections at this point and it would be a shame if they were never shown because they didn't "make" them

I agree with you Nate that the type of trees that you are referring to should be shown and seen. We all love to see great trees. I'm just not sure if they should be in a judged competition if the owner did not create them. It's a sticky subject with me. I have one tree that is likely my best tree. It is the only tree that I have bought that would be considered any where near a show worthy tree. I bought the tree from a great guy in Fresno last year as you know (Al knows the tree also I think) and have shown it but would not show it in a judged competition at this point. Personally, I would need to have worked on the tree and created or styled the tree myself to get any satisfaction out of entering it into a judged competition. I guess in my opinion (going against the majority) it is the bonsai artists work being judged. The tree doesn't care if it gets a ribbon or not.
My humble two cents,
Tona
 
many shows around me are anonymous, that is to say, no one knows who owns the tree in front of you unless you happen to know the tree.
In a judged show, I feel the tree is the object of the contest. The entrant should use discretion when deciding to enter a tree that a pro did and the owner simply bought.
I think that is one reason that in Japan, a tree can only be in a show every three years. It keeps the selection fresh, and you need to take charge of the tree for at least that long.
 
I hesitate to open this Pandoras Box. But that has never stopped me before.

This is probably a stupid question but here goes.


Unless the rules state something different, when an orginazation offers a contest with no rules is the object being entered judged or the entrant?

For the life of me I can't figure out how this can be so hard.

Smoke,

Object; not how, where, when or if it was acquired, cared for, structured, styled, built or sourced by you, me, he or she. Of course the entrant, viewers and judges are all human, so something is going to be considered flawed by somebody, somewhere for something.

Regards,
Martin
 
I agree with you Nate that the type of trees that you are referring to should be shown and seen. We all love to see great trees. I'm just not sure if they should be in a judged competition if the owner did not create them. It's a sticky subject with me. I have one tree that is likely my best tree. It is the only tree that I have bought that would be considered any where near a show worthy tree. I bought the tree from a great guy in Fresno last year as you know (Al knows the tree also I think) and have shown it but would not show it in a judged competition at this point. Personally, I would need to have worked on the tree and created or styled the tree myself to get any satisfaction out of entering it into a judged competition. I guess in my opinion (going against the majority) it is the bonsai artists work being judged. The tree doesn't care if it gets a ribbon or not.
My humble two cents,
Tona

Trust me I get it. I totaly get Vance Woods thoughts on this also. This is something that any bonsai artist must deal with many times in their career. Making my own tree from scratch and recieveing recognition for that acheivement is very fulfilling.

I also understand that when the Artisans Cup is fianally realized that many trees in that exhibit will not be the work of those entering them. That is not the reason for the exhibit. The reason is to capture the best trees in America and assemble them in one place for recognition as trees and bonsai alone. The true satisfaction is that of a person who enters and is asked about the tree and can relay all the effort one took to get the tree to the point it is in the exhibit is wonderful. Many there will be able to do that. Many will not. I would not drive all the way to Portland to see whos name is on any particular tree or if they did all the work, but I would drive there to see that exhibit of the best trees the USA has to offer. Who enters them is not important for me.
 
I may not have a lot of bonsai experience and I don't know the protocols of bonsai judging at a competition so I wont yea or nay, but if I may offer a similar yet different perspective:

In the (western) art world, entries made in a judged art competition are required to be the work of the entrant (either a single person or a collaborative effort). This does not mean that the materials used by the artist must all come from a raw state - many times parts of a "mixed media" work are a product made by someone else, but the artist always does something to the product to make the finished artwork their own, i.e. you can still see the "bones" of the previous artist's work, but the finished piece is artistically very different from before (Marcel Duchamp's L.H.O.O.Q. comes to mind - look it up on wiki)

So if bonsai is a horticultural ART, does this mean that the same conventions apply in a judged competition? If the answer is YES and it is an ART, then by the above standards only artists and not owners may submit works. In the eyes of art judges, if someone buys a piece of artwork they may not show it in competition as their own - they are a caretaker, a curator and maintainer of that piece of artwork - nothing more. (One must then wonder if people who collect bonsai and just maintain them in the vision of the previous artist fall into this designation if we were to judge bonsai as we judge all art)

But as we know - bonsai is not like most arts in the fact that it is not static - so even though one may purchase someone else's work, given enough time and training they can turn that tree into their own through a transformative process in which the "finished" tree looks markedly different and has a different artistic style from when it first changed hands (like the mixed media mentioned above).

It seems what we are conflicted over is that we lack categories of judging to differentiate between these levels of artistic "ownership." Should we judge "creators" of bonsai on the same level as "maintainers" of bonsai? (i.e. should we judge a new painting of an up and coming contemporary artist against a Van Gough that someone happens to own but brought to the same competition) That, I think, is the crux of this argument. If we are to award artists who create bonsai, then perhaps there should be a separate horticultural award for those that maintain a purchased bonsai that is not appreciably changed from the previous artist's vision, because let's face it, maintaining an old, award winning bonsai is a feat unto itself, but it's not the same as creating one if we were to view it through the eyes of an art judge.

Food for thought...
 
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Trust me I get it. I totaly get Vance Woods thoughts on this also. This is something that any bonsai artist must deal with many times in their career. Making my own tree from scratch and recieveing recognition for that acheivement is very fulfilling.

I also understand that when the Artisans Cup is fianally realized that many trees in that exhibit will not be the work of those entering them. That is not the reason for the exhibit. The reason is to capture the best trees in America and assemble them in one place for recognition as trees and bonsai alone. The true satisfaction is that of a person who enters and is asked about the tree and can relay all the effort one took to get the tree to the point it is in the exhibit is wonderful. Many there will be able to do that. Many will not. I would not drive all the way to Portland to see whos name is on any particular tree or if they did all the work, but I would drive there to see that exhibit of the best trees the USA has to offer. Who enters them is not important for me.

I agree with most everything you said Al. I, too would make the drive just to see the trees alone. The only caveat is that I do like to see who the artists are. It wouldn't change or diminish my view of a great tree either way but it does interest me.
Tona
 
As a newbie I am interested in the trees. I have seen several trees though and known by styling that they were created by the same person. I am also interested in the techniques used to create the vision.
 
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Duh, it's the object that is judged.

People that grow bonsai sure do express a lot of PRIDE and ENTITLEMENT. When you grow bonsai for over twenty years you become very ARROGANT and OPINIONATED. So the more time you put into this horticultural and artistic pursuit, the more you think you are the star of the show and the tree comes second? Or maybe some people are born show offs? Or is there a series of phases that a bonsai enthusiast goes through before reaching some kind of bonsai maturity that involves transcending the ego. Jeez I'm rambling. Sry:rolleyes:
 
I think that is one reason that in Japan, a tree can only be in a show every three years. It keeps the selection fresh, and you need to take charge of the tree for at least that long.

I'm sorry but I'm missing how this ensures that someone worked on a tree for at least 3 years. My home club requires you to have owned a tree for at least 2 years
 
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