Consistently killing conifers. Confused.

Mikecheck123

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This is the conundrum I came up against--I know that you're not supposed to bare root conifers because of the micorrhizal relationship, but if you're not supposed to bare root it, and not supposed to leave nursery soil in there, what do you do?
Bonsai is a wonderful world of contradictions. What I've learned is that if something seems contradictory, there is some detail or technique that's lacking.

One thing I might suggest is using plain black nursery pots. There's a reason that's what every commercial nursery uses for every species.

Those bonsai pots are very difficult to water consistently and properly.

Nursery pots are shaped in a way that sucks air down into the root ball, which is exactly what you want when the core is dense nursery soil.

That dense soil will stay wetter in a bonsai pot, leaving you with a wet zone and a dry zone in the pot--the worst of both worlds!

After your tree gets a nice rootball in the nursery pot, you can then think about making it look pretty.
 
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Bonsai Nut

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This is the conundrum I came up against--I know that you're not supposed to bare root conifers because of the micorrhizal relationship, but if you're not supposed to bare root it, and not supposed to leave nursery soil in there, what do you do?
You don't do it all at once :)

I killed a lot of conifers early on until I got smart about repotting. It is important to note, there is an art to knowing each tree is different, and what you can do with it before you stress it or kill it. Some trees can handle certain work, while the same species of tree in a different condition will be killed by the same work. So take everything I am going to say with a grain of salt.

First, make sure you time your work appropriately. With conifers your best window for this work is in the spring, after the last hard freeze but at least two months before summer heat. You want to have the tree awake, but give it plenty of time to recover before the heat of summer. The second window is in the fall, after the heat of summer, but with plenty of time before a hard freeze... or perhaps you can provide some minor protection via a cold frame or unheated greenhouse.

Second, make sure you understand the difference between fine feeder roots and large structural roots. The tree takes in water and nutrients via fine feeder roots. If you remove all of them, you will greatly stress the tree and might kill it.

Third, understand the big difference between a conifer that is established in good bonsai soil, versus a conifer in a nursery pot. In inorganic bonsai soil there is a lot of void space and room for oxygen exchange throughout the soil. The established conifer will have a fine mesh of feeder roots throughout the mix, so that repotting is a relatively straight-forward process of gently removing the old soil, trimming the roots, and replacing with new soil. You will often see repotting videos showing exacting this action of repotting a tree that is already in bonsai soil. However do the same thing with a tree in a nursery pot, and you very well could kill the tree.

In a nursery pot, the soil mix is largely organic and may have almost no void space. In order to breathe, the roots seek the outside of the root ball, so you have all your fine feeder roots on the outside or the bottom snuggled up against the black plastic pot. The interior of the root ball consists primarily of large structural roots - some of which can be quite long and circle in and around and through the root ball. Untangling this mess can be a major exercise in frustration, but it has to be done. Some people advocate "take a saw and cut off the bottom half of the rootball" but you have to make sure that you know what you are cutting. If the rootball consists of a large tap root that goes straight to the bottom, and then the fine feeder roots curl up the sides of the pot, if you cut straight through the rootball at the halfway point, you may sever the wrong roots. Another possibility, which has worked well for me with trees with fine roots, is to view the tree from above and think of the rootball as a pie. You want to try to remove all the soil from two opposite 1/6 slices of the pie - so that you are bare-rooting and working 1/3 of the roots of the tree while leaving 2/3 alone. Do this three years in a row, cleaning out two new slices each year, and after three years you will have barerooted your tree and replaced all the soil... just gradually.

Just going to add to Walter's comments about fertilization. Be very careful about using chemical fertilizers. It is very easy to over-fertilize, or to allow fertilizer salts to build up over time in a pot and burn the roots - particularly if you don't water heavily, and don't have an inorganic soil mix. You should never fertilize immediately after repotting, because you will stress the new roots. It is much more difficult to burn your tree with organic fertilizers, because they tend to be less strong, and often take time to break down into the soil.
 
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This has been a super interesting thread. Quick update a month and a half later, they're not dead yet :) More often and consistent watering seems to be working for them.

The smaller one has dropped a bunch of small branches, but I also see new growth, so I'm just going to keep an eye on them.

20210723_091726.jpg20210723_091719.jpg
 

River's Edge

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here's a reason that's what every commercial nursery uses for every species.
Cost, uniformity for efficient use of space. Suits nursery practice of up potting with little root work or concern for root ball formation.
Those bonsai pots are very difficult to water consistently and properly.
The shape of the pot simply requires adapting ones habits, once again mass production easier if everything is the same, that does not equate to inability to complete something consistently and properly.
Nursery pots are shaped in a way that sucks air down into the root ball, which is eactly what you want when the core is dense nursery soil.
The amount of air that enters the pot is influenced by the substrate, particle size and water retention properties.
After your tree gets a nice rootball in the nursery pot, you can then think about making it look pretty.
Bonsai require establishing nebari and a mass of feeder roots, Nursery pots create a most difficult starting situation to adapt for Bonsai purposes. Thus delaying and increasing the difficulty of developing Bonsai.

Simply observations from nursery growing trees destined to be Bonsai, not intended to plunk in a hole in the ground for landscape purposes. Why create a rats nest of circular roots over the first ten or twenty years of a trees life in order to start over and have to adapt the entire root ball for the proper root formation to live in a Bonsai pot?

It is important to keep in mind the desired outcome. I agree that nursery pots suit their intended purpose, also that they can be useful in beginning stages for young stock, however their typical narrow and taller shape with wider top simply is the opposite of useful for Bonsai outcomes.
 

Mikecheck123

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Cost, uniformity for efficient use of space. Suits nursery practice of up potting with little root work or concern for root ball formation.

The shape of the pot simply requires adapting ones habits, once again mass production easier if everything is the same, that does not equate to inability to complete something consistently and properly.

The amount of air that enters the pot is influenced by the substrate, particle size and water retention properties.

Bonsai require establishing nebari and a mass of feeder roots, Nursery pots create a most difficult starting situation to adapt for Bonsai purposes. Thus delaying and increasing the difficulty of developing Bonsai.

Simply observations from nursery growing trees destined to be Bonsai, not intended to plunk in a hole in the ground for landscape purposes. Why create a rats nest of circular roots over the first ten or twenty years of a trees life in order to start over and have to adapt the entire root ball for the proper root formation to live in a Bonsai pot?

It is important to keep in mind the desired outcome. I agree that nursery pots suit their intended purpose, also that they can be useful in beginning stages for young stock, however their typical narrow and taller shape with wider top simply is the opposite of useful for Bonsai outcomes.
I don't disagree. But OP is having trouble keeping them alive, which comes first.
 

Potawatomi13

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I'm just a hack when it comes to finishing bonsai, but isnt anyone concerned with @ManSkirtBrew feeding every week?

Does he do the same with his deciduous trees? Organic fertilizer?

Just a thought from a 1-2 times per year fertilizer.
CW
NO🤨. During development normally personally fertilize all trees weekly during growing/2 times weekly for conifers later summer/fall. 20-20-20 chemical fertilizer☺️.
 

leatherback

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NO🤨. During development normally personally fertilize all trees weekly during growing/2 times weekly for conifers later summer/fall. 20-20-20 chemical fertilizer☺️.
I feel sorry for my sticks in pots now!

If I really count the frequency they get something from me, it probably comes down to every 4 weeks during the growing season.
 

River's Edge

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NO🤨. During development normally personally fertilize all trees weekly during growing/2 times weekly for conifers later summer/fall. 20-20-20 chemical fertilizer☺️.
During development my trees in grow boxes or Anderson Flats have organic fertilizer available continuously as it breaks down very slowly, Additionally I use liquid fish fertilizer and liquid Grow pro once a month. In the grow beds my preference is Apex a slow release osmocote type pellet. One application in the spring and one application in the fall.
Seedlings and cuttings receive liquid fish fertilizer and Grow pro alternate weekly.
During refinement and for general maintenance I use organic after the new foliage hardens off and in the fall. The organic breaks down very slowly and has low numbers for healthy but not extensive growth. The organic is controlled by placement in tea bags, allowing me to remove or add as required.
The tea bags usually begin to decompose by the fall, so they are collected , broken up and the remaining organic is used to mix in soil that will be used for cuttings and seedlings being potted up for the first time from flats or seed trays. Or if not needed their they end up in the Rhubarb, Roses, Camelia, Japanese maples in the landscape beds.
 

Potawatomi13

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During development my trees in grow boxes or Anderson Flats have organic fertilizer available continuously as it breaks down very slowly, Additionally I use liquid fish fertilizer and liquid Grow pro once a month. In the grow beds my preference is Apex a slow release osmocote type pellet. One application in the spring and one application in the fall.
Seedlings and cuttings receive liquid fish fertilizer and Grow pro alternate weekly.
During refinement and for general maintenance I use organic after the new foliage hardens off and in the fall. The organic breaks down very slowly and has low numbers for healthy but not extensive growth. The organic is controlled by placement in tea bags, allowing me to remove or add as required.
The tea bags usually begin to decompose by the fall, so they are collected , broken up and the remaining organic is used to mix in soil that will be used for cuttings and seedlings being potted up for the first time from flats or seed trays. Or if not needed their they end up in the Rhubarb, Roses, Camelia, Japanese maples in the landscape beds.
Michael went over both pretty well In Bonsai Heresies. Both work, both have points. Personally prefer simplicity, do not want crap/garbage on top of substrate so use chemical as many do. Works for me;)
 
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River's Edge

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Michael went over both pretty well In Bonsai Heresies. Both work, both have points. Personally prefer simplicity, do not want crap/garbage on top of substrate so use chemical as many do. Works for me;)
Agreed both work well, I suppose that is why I include Apex in my fertilizing program, along with Grow Pro. That makes both of us happy. Right;)
 

R3x

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I've been looking at using Zeolite in a mix I'm developing myself. Glad to know I'm on the right track! I've never bought it before. Do they have larger granular sizes like ¼ to use in a bonsai- style mix? Do you have a brand you like? I appreciate any info.
Not sure where you are but judging by you using royal(?) system not in Europe as me :) Here you can buy these fractions (dimensions in mm): 1-3, 3-5, 4-8, 8-16, 10-40. They sell them cheap in stores where they sell building materials (sand, gravel, stones, ...) and they'd provide you either 25kg bag or 1000kg bag (or fill your own bags). It is quite (actually very) cheap. For example 500kg costs around 150EUR. In smaller amounts it gets a bit more expensive as per kg but still way under 1EUR/kg. It is basically indestructible and can last for very long (or even forever).
 

NamesakE

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Not sure where you are but judging by you using royal(?) system not in Europe as me :) Here you can buy these fractions (dimensions in mm): 1-3, 3-5, 4-8, 8-16, 10-40. They sell them cheap in stores where they sell building materials (sand, gravel, stones, ...) and they'd provide you either 25kg bag or 1000kg bag (or fill your own bags). It is quite (actually very) cheap. For example 500kg costs around 150EUR. In smaller amounts it gets a bit more expensive as per kg but still way under 1EUR/kg. It is basically indestructible and can last for very long (or even forever).
Thanks for the response! Yes I'm in America and I haven't seen it in stores. Maybe it's not popular over here which is a shame. Everything I've found online that's sized is a fortune. Maybe a better look around the home improvement stores will help
 

R3x

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Thanks for the response! Yes I'm in America and I haven't seen it in stores. Maybe it's not popular over here which is a shame. Everything I've found online that's sized is a fortune. Maybe a better look around the home improvement stores will help
Also check out stores selling material for ponds. In here it is very commonly used for water filtration as it can absorb lots of minerals - in this case Nitrogen.
 
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