Cork Bark Japanese Black Pines

0soyoung

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When a graft is going to fail will you see signs at the union first? Or will the tree die first without indication the graft is failing? I would think something would be noticeable at the union but have no experience with this occurring...yet
It is easy enough to figure this out when it arises because of differences in the growth rates, since all growth occurs in the cambium.

At one time the graft was successful; therefore there is at least a growth ring of connected wood = xylem through which the upper parts of the tree and foliage, draws water and mineral nutrients.

Photosynthate is transported down the tree, ultimately feeding the roots, in the phloem or inner bark. Growth occurs in the cambium that is between the wood and the inner bark. When actively growing, the cells of the cambium divide - those toward the inside differentiate to become part of a growth ring of wood, whereas those to the outside differentiate into additional bark tissues.

An established graft fails because the growth rate of the root stock is markedly different than the scion-tree. That is, the cambium on one side of the union shears away from the cambium on the other, and with it shears the phloem connection as well (if the union is covered by a thick bark, we might not be able to discern the crack until the failure has progressed quite far). The roots in the path below no longer get fed and die within a couple of seasons. Of course, yet more of the phloem connection is lost in the subsequent seasons and yet more of the roots die and take with it some part of the foliage because it not longer can get an adequate amount of water and minerals.

At the top of this crack, photosynthate and auxin may accumulate. If so, roots may eventually form if it is kept moist (just like an air/ground layer). Otherwise, this area likely dies back (becomes necrotic) on both sides of the 'separation crack'.

In brief, we expect to see a separation gap that progressively moves around the circumference of the graft union, accompanied by a corresponding decline in the vitality of the foliage canopy, though the decline in one area of the foliage canopy may be noted first). But, possibly the union just explodes, instead :rolleyes:.
 

0soyoung

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Hmmm...that's a fairly complete statement.
I don't mean to become overbearing. It just happens when I try to 'share'.

Yah, I'm sorry.
I should have put this
In brief, we expect to see a separation gap that progressively moves around the circumference of the graft union, accompanied by a corresponding decline in the vitality of the foliage canopy, though the decline in one area of the foliage canopy may be noted first). But, possibly the union just explodes, instead :rolleyes:.
up front (and, maybe, just left it at that).
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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One option, if the graft is low, is to plant the pine deep enough to bury the union. As the graft union begins to fail, the scion may form roots at the union. If kept buried, you won't miss this opportunity. If the graft is high, it won't be possible to do this. When possible, once a young grafted tree is well established and growing, I try to air layer off a section that won't be needed for the grafted tree's design. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. My JBP cork bark pine air layering success rate is about 40 or 50 %. Ground layering is in progress on my Brocade.
 

Adair M

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One option, if the graft is low, is to plant the pine deep enough to bury the union. As the graft union begins to fail, the scion may form roots at the union. If kept buried, you won't miss this opportunity. If the graft is high, it won't be possible to do this. When possible, once a young grafted tree is well established and growing, I try to air layer off a section that won't be needed for the grafted tree's design. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. My JBP cork bark pine air layering success rate is about 40 or 50 %. Ground layering is in progress on my Brocade.
My Zuisho JWP did this. I have no idea if it was intensional or not. It had two sets of roots. The old JBP roots have now been removed.
 

Potawatomi13

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Several months ago I commented referring to the fact that the JBP cork bark pines I had seen in the ground are not able to support themselves. Since then I took several pics with my pop bottle in them for size. This is at a Bonsai nursery here in Oregon and I believe these are Ondae variety. One shows a major branch or trunk that has split as it fell over of its own weight. I had hoped to plant one in my arboretum but they would just sprawl on the ground. There are only 3 trees in these pictures.
IMG_1280.JPG IMG_1281.JPG IMG_1282.JPG IMG_1283.JPG IMG_1284.JPG IMG_1285.JPG
 
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Potawatomi13

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This is the last 3 pics and as you can see they grow quite robust sprouts but put no energy into developing the wood to support this growth:
 

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fredtruck

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This is the last 3 pics and as you can see they grow quite robust sprouts but put no energy into developing the wood to support this growth:
They sure look like Ondae. As floppy as they may be, they do have at least one characteristic that is useful for bonsai. Falling branches work pretty well with this corker. Cascades also work well.

Your pictures are quite interesting, and they go a long way towards explaining what I would call Ondae's tendency towards disorderly branch growth and their relatively flexible nature compared to other cork bark black pines I have. It also seems that corking is heaviest on the branches and much less so on the trunk. On my upright Ondae, the trunk is about 3" in diameter.

Potawatomi13, it's not clear to me whether you think the Ondae is a very weak upright form or a prostrate form of cork bark black pine, or neither.
 

Potawatomi13

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Actually really not either. In that earlier post I mentioned someone asked me if I'd actually seen one growing in the ground? I'd said yes and thought this might be interesting for folks to see since I'd opened up my mouth. And on top of that I had to call my tech support help(in India)to actually figure out how to load the pics up here:rolleyes:. In blissful ignorance of the cork bark growth habit I had an interest in adding to an arboretum I hope to develop. Seeing these trees kind of disabused me of that idea. They still might make an interesting cascade or even other styles of Bonsai as long as they weren't Imperial sized trees. I thought it was strange that the trunks didn't have that much bark compared to the limbs as you brought up. I guess it just gets so "corky" and later in life just looks like regular bark(mostly).o_O
Please let me ask you a couple questions? Are the other JBP cork barks any stiffer than these trees so that they'll stand up to actual tree size:confused:? What is the "tortoise shell" bark variety called and do you know who would sell these in starter size?
 

fredtruck

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The tortoise shell bark variety is hard to find. One variety that has it is called Hachi Gen. You can get cuttings from Evergreen Gardenworks run by Brent Walston. I haven't seen actual tree size corkers, and don't know of any, so I can't answer your question. Maybe someone else can answer.
 

Potawatomi13

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The tortoise shell bark variety is hard to find. One variety that has it is called Hachi Gen. You can get cuttings from Evergreen Gardenworks run by Brent Walston. I haven't seen actual tree size corkers, and don't know of any, so I can't answer your question. Maybe someone else can answer.

Thanks Fred; That's a start anyway. Hmmm. Also an accidental pun:rolleyes:.
 

fredtruck

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Potawatomi13 I forgot to mention that tortoise shell bark is bark that has a regular geometrical pattern, usually diamond shapes. BVF has a Hachi Gen that is coming along pretty well that shows this pattern.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Potawatomi13 I forgot to mention that tortoise shell bark is bark that has a regular geometrical pattern, usually diamond shapes. BVF has a Hachi Gen that is coming along pretty well that shows this pattern.
Here is a bigger example of the tortoise shell bark:
image.jpg
 

Arcto

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Here's one. I've had it for a couple of years. It was marked down because the cultivar was unknown. It had a low graft and I'm a bit of a cheapskate so...image.jpgimage.jpg
Now the questions. Any trick to wiring these without trashing the corking? How cold hardy are these? Normally I just put my hardy pine under the bench mulched in. But I may see -30 here. Potawotomi13, what nursery was that? Just in case I ever make it back over the hill.
 

Potawatomi13

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Here's one. I've had it for a couple of years. It was marked down because the cultivar was unknown. It had a low graft and I'm a bit of a cheapskate so...View attachment 81968View attachment 81969
Now the questions. Any trick to wiring these without trashing the corking? How cold hardy are these? Normally I just put my hardy pine under the bench mulched in. But I may see -30 here. Potawotomi13, what nursery was that? Just in case I ever make it back over the hill.
Telperion Farms in Lyons, OR. Wisdom to me would dictate wiring anything before any sign of bark development happens.
 
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