Cork Elm, Sumo or naturalistic ?

[DaveV]

This is one of my cork elms. I am wanting to know if anyone has ideas for a naturalistic style. There has been some talk about naturalistic versus traditional style. I am personally drawn to traditional ( chinese and japanese) styles. However, I wouldn't mind trying to style this one in an naturalistic style. I plan to transfer to a new pot this spring. Any thoughts??

Thanks,

DaveV.

 

[JudyB]

Dave, I'm no expert for sure. But to me all it needs is a really good wiring job and a new pot, a few years to fatten up some of the branching, and it IS a naturalistic tree. I'd make sure to emphasize the right hand secondary trunk, it's a lovely feature. What does the nebari look like? The only other thing I'd try for is something on the left side to anchor the sharpness of the trunk at the base.
Nice tree.

 

[crust]

I would train it look like a big knarly decidious tree that you like or know. In my area oaks and maples occasionaly can grow with large warty trunks. They usually have broad open crowns. Naturalism transcends tradition and most of the great decidious bonsai I have seen whether Chinese, Japanese or European, are quite naturalistic.

 

[crust]

Dave, I'm no expert for sure. But to me all it needs is a really good wiring job and a new pot, a few years to fatten up some of the branching, and it IS a naturalistic tree. I'd make sure to emphasize the right hand secondary trunk, it's a lovely feature. What does the nebari look like? The only other thing I'd try for is something on the left side to anchor the sharpness of the trunk at the base.
Nice tree.

Nice analysis Miss Judy.

 

[DaveV]

Dave, I'm no expert for sure. But to me all it needs is a really good wiring job and a new pot, a few years to fatten up some of the branching, and it IS a naturalistic tree. I'd make sure to emphasize the right hand secondary trunk, it's a lovely feature. What does the nebari look like? The only other thing I'd try for is something on the left side to anchor the sharpness of the trunk at the base.
Nice tree.

Thank you Judy and crust. To me, a naturalistic look has upward curving branches like it is now and a traditional look would have the bracnches wired out more flat. I was wondering too if the branches would need to grow out longer in order to have proportion with the fat trunk. Judy, with cork elms the bark at the base is the nebari. So, what you see is the nebari. At least that has been my experience.

Dave V.

 

[Randy]

Not sure if you have lots of Oak trees near you but maybe studying some would give you a direction. Found this blog with a great Oak picture.
Big squatting Oak tree. Branches going up, then out it seems

 

[JudyB]

Dave, take a look at the tree in pic. #7. It has that natural feel to it, but is a worked tree. That is what your's lacks other than time. I think this could be good inspiration to you. Good photos all around here anyway.

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t...in-associations-shohin-off-weekend-event-2011

 

[DaveV]

Dave, take a look at the tree in pic. #7. It has that natural feel to it, but is a worked tree. That is what your's lacks other than time. I think this could be good inspiration to you. Good photos all around here anyway.

http://ibonsaiclub.forumotion.com/t...in-associations-shohin-off-weekend-event-2011

Yes Judy, that's what I am looking for.

Thank you.

 

[Si Nguyen]

That's an awesome tree Dave. I think a sumo AND naturalistic style is probably the way to go with it. It seems to want to go that way, so just go along with it. The only thing that's a little bit off is the straight vertical edge on the left side, at least that's how it shows up in pictures. I would change the planting angle a little bit. The new position would make the main trunk more vertical and that would work with a sumo style a little better. Right now it is leaning too much to the right. And the new position would bring the secondary trunk more into the center of the composition too. One cool thing about this tree is that you could probably get multiple apex. That's not easy to find on small trees.
Here's how I see it.
Good luck!
Si

 

[Oliver Muscio]

I would go with Si and the others: the tree is already on its way to a naturalistic style. I might consider in wiring the branches on the left raising the larger branch on the left below the apex, and one rear branch so that they sweep upward more. Somewhat intermediate between the small branch at top left, and the two low branches on the left coming from the base.
Oliver

 

[DaveV]

That's an awesome tree Dave. I think a sumo AND naturalistic style is probably the way to go with it. It seems to want to go that way, so just go along with it. The only thing that's a little bit off is the straight vertical edge on the left side, at least that's how it shows up in pictures. I would change the planting angle a little bit. The new position would make the main trunk more vertical and that would work with a sumo style a little better. Right now it is leaning too much to the right. And the new position would bring the secondary trunk more into the center of the composition too. One cool thing about this tree is that you could probably get multiple apex. That's not easy to find on small trees.
Here's how I see it.
Good luck!
Si

Si, I really like your style suggestion. I like your thought of having multiple apexes, I didn't consider that before. I do plan to repot this spring and will angle it to the left. I'll post updates in the future.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

I go away to a conference and awesome trees get posted....

great material and I will echo the thoughts of many here... tho I would like to point out that naturalistic does not mean letting the tree go wild but instead creating a naturally wild look through much work... upward swinging branches like this are a sign of juvenile growth.... the appearance of aged natural growth is downward and contorted.... sparser and somewhat horizontal ....

great material... just needs lots of wire... I think one thing that often can make the difference is the level of ramification on a tree... over doing it can give the tree a strong "worked" look... and if that is what you like this will still be a beautiful tree... regardless of your choice of direction..

 

[Randy]

naturalistic does not mean letting the tree go wild but instead creating a naturally wild look through much work...

One thing that often can make the difference is the level of ramification on a tree... Over doing it can give the tree a strong "worked" look...

bam.......

 

[rockm]

"To me, a naturalistic look has upward curving branches like it is now and a traditional look would have the bracnches wired out more flat. I was wondering too if the branches would need to grow out longer in order to have proportion with the fat trunk. Judy, with cork elms the bark at the base is the nebari. So, what you see is the nebari. At least that has been my experience. "

As was said, upward pointing branches are a sign of a juvenile tree, as are long thin branches. What would work with this tree is clip and grow. Allow branches to extend and thicken until they are very fat at the base, prune the back HARD to within an inch to half inch from the trunk, repeat procedure successively with each flush of new shoots--you can also use directional pruning and some wiring to push movement into the shoots and branches as you go. The repeated grow out/prune back technique is extremely effective with elms as they grow very very fast and produce extesive back budding. You will build up ramification on gnarly looking branching in only a few years.

This isn't the "wire and be done" kind of design that's used on evergreens. Building believable branching in deciduous trees can't really be produced adequately with wire alone. It's all about the pruning.

A trunk like that deserves branching that matches it.

 

[Ang3lfir3]

This isn't the "wire and be done" kind of design that's used on evergreens. Building believable branching in deciduous trees can't really be produced adequately with wire alone. It's all about the pruning.

let it not be thought that when I mention that a tree needs lots of wiring that I am in some way saying that it will be done once that occurs, or that that is all that should ever be done. [not suggesting that rockm was implying anything either]

I get tired of typing out super long explanations of how to prune trees to create back budding and taper .... I would hope that many people are past that (especially with a tree like this one) ....

 

[davetree]

I think that the branches have to be twice as thick but much shorter. It is a squat chunky tree and the branches should be similar to the trunk. So yes, grow them way out, then cut way back and repeat.

 

[rockm]

"I get tired of typing out super long explanations of how to prune trees to create back budding and taper .... I would hope that many people are past that (especially with a tree like this one) ...."

I think that's a big jump. The notion that you have to grow a branch out significantly then cut 90-98 percent of it off is pretty counter intuitive. There is a propensity to try and use existing growth as the foundation for many bonsai, when all that existing growth should be thought of as temporary and a starting point.