Cost efficiencies of mixes

[777thSunRay]

So I am placing my somewhat developed Bonsai or Pre Bonsai (btw what is the technical difference? Lol) into 1 gallon pots with Miracle-Gro Cactus Mix and about 1/3 - 1/2 Pumice. Suddenly I started wondering if I could use a more inexpensive option for one gallons to grow out. Does this mix give a growth boost that makes it worthwhile? I mean isn’t that the point of a more pricey mix? And by the way, is a totally inorganic mix better for one gallon, and if so any other component moderate priced like pumice? Or is it possible the miracle gro cactus mix is good for growth rate in this size?

Which leads me to ask about this. I read on a thread of the forum that at some point if you are growing a tree large, you can simply use very inexpensive compost with wood chips. And I imagine you’d use something like Microlife fertilizer for this. At what size pot can you start this mix? I’m using cactus mix and pumice for everything through one gallon. I use Miracle Gro potting soil in a couple two gallons.

Am I burning money using the miracle gro cactus mix and pumice for one gallon, or the potting soil for two gallon? And when, at what pot size, do I start with compost, wood chips and Microlife (if this is advisable, generally)

Thanks all, in advance

 

[penumbra]

A growers mix like Pro Mix, fine pine bark mulch and perlite. If you need more weight you can add granite grit (feed store). Also you can sub coco chor for pro mix. Variations of this mix proportional to the plants needs, pot type etc is what I use here on the east coast.
I frequently use osmacote fertilizer but you may have something better for your climate.
This comes out to and $4 - $5 a cubic foot. There is about 7-1/2 gallons in a cubic foot.

 

[Joe Dupre']

You can use pine bark and Napa 8822 in equal parts. After sifting, that mixture costs between $1 and $2 per gallon. Six years in, I haven't found anything that won't grow well in it.

 

[777thSunRay]

A growers mix like Pro Mix, fine pine bark mulch and perlite. If you need more weight you can add granite grit (feed store). Also you can sub coco chor for pro mix. Variations of this mix proportional to the plants needs, pot type etc is what I use here on the east coast.
I frequently use osmacote fertilizer but you may have something better for your climate.
This comes out to and $4 - $5 a cubic foot.

You can use pine bark and Napa 8822 in equal parts. After sifting, that mixture costs between $1 and $2 per gallon. Six years in, I haven't found anything that won't grow well in it.

I really appreciate the recommendations. I’m still somewhat a beginner, and have not yet got to the point of researching mixes! Any pointers about how these mixes are advantageous, I mean scientifically, would be appreciated! Lol

oh and btw… the Miracle Gro Cactus mix on Amazon is about $10 per 16 dry quarts. However it’s very fluffy, and when you pot it it compresses a lot. I’ve found that by volume when I thought the pumice was twice as expensive, once cactus mix was compressed the pumice was priced about the same. So the dry measurements measure volume the same regardless of density or ‘fluffiness’!? Lol

So if you are able to use a pretty cost efficient and biologically effective mix as you have both described, can I use use such a regimen even for small plants, as small as a few inches, or should this start at a later point, at one gallon or more. If these mixes are totally effective, what is the purpose of an expensive Bonsai mix. Presumably it is necessary to sustain a tree in a training/display pot, if I am correct?

 

[leatherback]

Not sure what you pay for pumice. It is about 2E per gallon here. Not worth looking around for anything else. Next to this, I use blahton, some expanded shale. Comes in .. 10? 12? gallo bags for around 10E. Add a bit of pine bark and between 1-2E a gallon growing out substrate.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Go to OC Farm Supply and get yourself some 40 lb bags of pumice for about $12 each. Tell them you are a member of the Orange County Bonsai Society and you get a discount.

Go to Green Thumb and get yourself some pine bark micro nuggets. If my memory serves me correctly, they stock both mini and micro sizes - you want the micro. They should be very small pieces - about 1/2" and less.

Add the pine bark to the pumice at about a 10%/90% to 20%/80% blend. Finished!

Avoid adding any potting soil or similar organic product to your bonsai soil that will clog the soil. If you water your bonsai and the water doesn't immediately pass through the top of your soil and flow out through the drain holes (leaving wet soil particles behind) your soil is too dense / clogged.

 

[rockm]

I really appreciate the recommendations. I’m still somewhat a beginner, and have not yet got to the point of researching mixes! Any pointers about how these mixes are advantageous, I mean scientifically, would be appreciated! Lol

oh and btw… the Miracle Gro Cactus mix on Amazon is about $10 per 16 dry quarts. However it’s very fluffy, and when you pot it it compresses a lot. I’ve found that by volume when I thought the pumice was twice as expensive, once cactus mix was compressed the pumice was priced about the same. So the dry measurements measure volume the same regardless of density or ‘fluffiness’!? Lol

So if you are able to use a pretty cost efficient and biologically effective mix as you have both described, can I use use such a regimen even for small plants, as small as a few inches, or should this start at a later point, at one gallon or more. If these mixes are totally effective, what is the purpose of an expensive Bonsai mix. Presumably it is necessary to sustain a tree in a training/display pot, if I am correct?

cactus mix and potting soil will be nothing but trouble. Both are too dense and compact very easily. Bonsai soil is unlike any "soil" you've seen. Good bonsai soil is chunky and looks to beginners like gravel...Follow Bonsai Nut's advice. That's a great mix and not all that expensive.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I re use my bonsai soil and with about 150 plants in bonsai soil I think I've spent a total of 200 dollars on soil.
Less than 2 usd per plant.

A good soil from the start goes a long way. It pays itself back in a year.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I re use my bonsai soil and with about 150 plants in bonsai soil I think I've spent a total of 200 dollars on soil.
Less than 2 usd per plant.

A good soil from the start goes a long way. It pays itself back in a year.

I agree. Better to spend $200 on soil than the same amount or MORE for fancy pots.

 

[777thSunRay]

I re use my bonsai soil and with about 150 plants in bonsai soil I think I've spent a total of 200 dollars on soil.
Less than 2 usd per plant.

A good soil from the start goes a long way. It pays itself back in a year.

Okay, makes sense! So when you say Bonsai soil, do you mean like a ‘traditional’ (as I understand it) mix? Something along the lines of pumice, lava rock, akedama, etc? Or more like what @Bonsai Nut suggests?

Oh and a question… do you all use the same mix regardless of pot size, even for seedlings?

 

[Dav4]

Okay, makes sense! So when you say Bonsai soil, do you mean like a ‘traditional’ (as I understand it) mix? Something along the lines of pumice, lava rock, akedama, etc? Or more like what @Bonsai Nut suggests?

Oh and a question… do you all use the same mix regardless of pot size, even for seedlings?

Generally speaking, bigger trees in bigger pots will have a mix containing an aggregate with a larger particle size. I also fall into the "recycle soil" camp, though I tend to use my recycled soil for trees in early in development and save the new stuff for more developed and older trees in bonsai pots. Also, don't turn your nose up at a $200 pot if it's well made, you can afford it, and will fit a tree you have... or, maybe, you just like it . You'll understand if you continue in the hobby for a few more years. Good pots are expensive, but that's just part of the hobby

 

[777thSunRay]

Go to OC Farm Supply and get yourself some 40 lb bags of pumice for about $12 each. Tell them you are a member of the Orange County Bonsai Society and you get a discount.

Go to Green Thumb and get yourself some pine bark micro nuggets. If my memory serves me correctly, they stock both mini and micro sizes - you want the micro. They should be very small pieces - about 1/2" and less.

Add the pine bark to the pumice at about a 10%/90% to 20%/80% blend. Finished!

Avoid adding any potting soil or similar organic product to your bonsai soil that will clog the soil. If you water your bonsai and the water doesn't immediately pass through the top of your soil and flow out through the drain holes (leaving wet soil particles behind) your soil is too dense / clogged.

I appreciate the elucidation! I will get to those shops. Is Green Thumb the online store, or local, or both? Lol
So a desirable Bonsai soil is not unlike an Orchid mix?..
Also, do you not need some proportion of a finer substrate, even a small amount?

 

[leatherback]

Also, do you not need some proportion of a finer substrate, even a small amount?

nope

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I appreciate the elucidation! I will get to those shops. Is Green Thumb the online store, or local, or both? Lol
So a desirable Bonsai soil is not unlike an Orchid mix?..
Also, do you not need some proportion of a finer substrate, even a small amount?

There are as many opinions about bonsai soil as there are bonsai However, many people have had good results with an inorganic mix made from 1/3 akadama, 1/3 pumice, 1/3 lava rock. Piece size is determined by the size of your bonsai, generally, but 3/16" - 1/4" is a good size for many medium size and larger trees. Smaller trees in smaller pots you will want to go smaller - like 1/8". I sift my soil components and have a couple of Home Depot buckets on the side where I keep smaller piece sizes (though not dust/fines - you never want those regardless of your mix).

Green Thumb I'm talking about the local nursery chain like the one in Lake Forest. They have their soil components displayed as bags hanging on their wall. Just ask them about their smallest pine bark mix. You are looking for small chunks with a minimum of dust/fines.



For development purposes, I was pretty successful with a mix made up of mostly pumice and a little pine bark, but these trees were usually planted in large pond baskets or Anderson flats where drainage was never going to be a problem. For trees in bonsai pots, I would go with the traditional blend with no organic, and I didn't have to worry about the soil clogging until the tree's rootball had grown and taken up all the void space in the soil.

You never want "dirt" in any bonsai mix. That includes potting soil, sand, dust, organic fines, anything that turns into mud in water. Even if used in small amounts, that muck will simply fill in the void space in your soil mix and create pockets of anaerobic activity. Roots need oxygen to live, and if you choke them off they will die and rot... exacerbating poor soil conditions. This includes clay products that might start as pieces, but break down quickly when wet (think cat litter). There are a million clay products out there that may look like great soil components (as a replacement for akadama), but be very careful if you use them without experience. Even branded products can differ in their make-up from region to region. What works in one place may not work in another - because the product is different.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

Okay, makes sense! So when you say Bonsai soil, do you mean like a ‘traditional’ (as I understand it) mix? Something along the lines of pumice, lava rock, akedama, etc? Or more like what @Bonsai Nut suggests?

Oh and a question… do you all use the same mix regardless of pot size, even for seedlings?

I use larger particles for bigger trees. And larger particles for the bottom layer in the pot. Smaller trees get smaller particles and even higher amounts of organics due to me being at work 8-12 hours a day. Smaller pots just dry faster.

Traditional? I don't use akadama. I do use perlite and I'm experimenting with coco coir as an organic particle.
If it works, it just works. That's in essence the most important factor. If it breathes, holds both water and air long enough, and doesn't break down in 3 years, then it's a good soil. No matter what stuff you use, if it hits those 4 marks, it's a good soil. If it also holds nutrients well, or influences the pH, it's even better. But those last two points are less important because we can influence those manually.

I don't use bonsai soil for seedlings. At all. Because although bonsai soil for adult plants does wonders, for seedlings it forces them to produce gnarly tap roots that just create more labour in the long run. I go for the lazy approach and let the soil fix it for me; a mixture of sand, perlite and potting soil or black acidic peat, or coco coir, depending on the species I change the ratios.

 

[Gr8tfuldad]

Go to OC Farm Supply and get yourself some 40 lb bags of pumice for about $12 each. Tell them you are a member of the Orange County Bonsai Society and you get a discount.

Go to Green Thumb and get yourself some pine bark micro nuggets. If my memory serves me correctly, they stock both mini and micro sizes - you want the micro. They should be very small pieces - about 1/2" and less.

Add the pine bark to the pumice at about a 10%/90% to 20%/80% blend. Finished!

Avoid adding any potting soil or similar organic product to your bonsai soil that will clog the soil. If you water your bonsai and the water doesn't immediately pass through the top of your soil and flow out through the drain holes (leaving wet soil particles behind) your soil is too dense / clogged.

Does anybody know the name of pumice manufacturer that we can source it by other means? It doesn’t look like OC sells online. Thanks.

 

[Jcmmaple]

I get mine from fifth season gardening in Asheville, they do sell online too shipping may be crazy. It is 1cubit feet, i usually get about 5gallons out of it after sifting

 

[parhamr]

Does anybody know the name of pumice manufacturer that we can source it by other means? It doesn’t look like OC sells online. Thanks.

Up here in the PNW we can “just” call up any gravel, sand, soil, or bark supplier and easily order delivery of pumice or red lava by the cubic yard. Try that? Sometimes the search criteria is “landscaping supply” or similar business categories.

Maybe 1/2 of the businesses will also do a five-gallon bucket rate, where you pull up, shovel it into your buckets, and then pay by each bucket.

Maybe 1/4 of them will do a “we load you haul” rate where, if you have a truck, they’ll dump a front loader bucket into your bed.

 

[Tums]

Does anybody know the name of pumice manufacturer that we can source it by other means? It doesn’t look like OC sells online. Thanks.

Going to be harder on the east coast since all the mines are out west, I think. I used to be able to pick up 1cu ft bags of pumice at hydroponics stores under the name "Mother Earth Volcanite" but I think the product was discontinued. Now I'm wondering if I can just order a whole pallet and store it in the basement or something crazy like that. I also grow a lot of succulents and going back to floaty perlite is going to be super annoying.

 

[Orion_metalhead]

@Gr8tfuldad i have had good luck here in NJ with equal parts napa 8822 Diatomaceous earth ($7/40lb bag - sifted yields about 5g), perlite ($18/lb - I use the one without added fertilizers at lowes/hd and get about 10g per bag sifted), and add in crushed pine bark, maybe 1/3 of the other ingredients... yields plenty mix. Total: $30/20g-25g or about $1 - $1.50/gallon.

You can add poultry grit in for weight if you want in pretty much any amount.