Could Daconil do this, if not, then what?

[base797]

So, last year I had an issue with rhizophaera fungus, spruce needle cast. This year I have been applying Daconil fungicide as a preventative measure. Due to having so many spruce, all on slightly different schedules (pushing buds), I end up over spraying and hitting (especially small ones) other plants at different stages of developing new needles. Recently I have noticed some small buds seem to have dried up and turned red. As noted, mostly on small ones that get hit repeatedly with overspray. Curious if the fungicide could be doing this to buds that are too young to receive, albeit inadvertent, treatment? If not, any other ideas of what's going on? Note, in the pics, the white residue is the Daconil from last nights application.

Patrik

 

[Paradox]

Not daconil

Dunno what

 

[coh]

I suppose it's possible, but I've used daconil on pines, spruce, and a variety of other trees without experiencing anything like this. I actually like to apply it as the new buds are just swelling and then opening, as I've read that it's at that stage that fungal infections are likely to occur.

Did this happen immediately after an application, or is it something that has just gradually developed over the course of the spring? What rate are you using (mixture of dac to water)? Are you using the concentrate and mixing yourself, or pre-bottled? Were any of these repotted this spring...looks like it could be a root problem.

Chris

 

[wireme]

Spruce budworm?

 

[base797]

I suppose it's possible, but I've used daconil on pines, spruce, and a variety of other trees without experiencing anything like this. I actually like to apply it as the new buds are just swelling and then opening, as I've read that it's at that stage that fungal infections are likely to occur.

Did this happen immediately after an application, or is it something that has just gradually developed over the course of the spring? What rate are you using (mixture of dac to water)? Are you using the concentrate and mixing yourself, or pre-bottled? Were any of these repotted this spring...looks like it could be a root problem.

Chris

Thanks Chris. I started applying Daconil well over a month ago as the earliest ones were pushing. The first few weeks, I mixed (using concentrate) and apllied as per instructions.
The only deviation from instructions was that I didn't use a pump style sprayer. I say this because the hand held squeeze bottle (what you are imaging, but more industrial model). I mention this because, due to viscosity of mixture, the sprayer tends to drip drops onto substrate. I know because I had the thought that it could impact the mycorhizaea. Incidentally, I was mixing 1 tbls per 32 oz of water which should roughly translate to the recommended 3 tbls per gallon.
As I needed to apply more often and to more trees, I was mildly concerned (ironically perhaps) of over spray. That coupled with the dripping applicator, I decided to go a little thinner lately. About 2/3 strength.
Happened quickly, just really noticed today and did apply late yesterday. Neither plant was repotted recently. Big one collected in 2010 and repotted over 2 years ago. Small one was collected 2 years ago and still in mountain soil/pumice-scoria mix.

Wire, when I googled earlier, I came across the budworm, but no reference to anywhere near here. Thanks

Patrik

 

[Paradox]

Ok now that I have more than 30 sec to answer.

I thought about this on the way home and it looks to me that it could be some kind of budworm, tip moth or tip blight.

I saw a similar thing on a pine that a tip moth got to one of the buds.

You should cover your soil with something any time you spray fungicide or insecticide. I use towels.

 

[base797]

Ok now that I have more than 30 sec to answer.

I thought about this on the way home and it looks to me that it could be some kind of budworm, tip moth or tip blight.

I saw a similar thing on a pine that a tip moth got to one of the buds.

You should cover your soil with something any time you spray fungicide or insecticide. I use towels.

Thanks Sandy.
If it was tip blight, I would think the Daconil would take care of that, but not sure?

I have merit granuls and Bayer 3 and 1, do you think either one would be effective?
Good idea on the towels.

Patrik

 

[coh]

Some kind of tip moth or budworm seems like a reasonable guess. I've had them once in a while on spruce, and pretty much every year on ponderosa...despite regular treatment. Merit/Bayer (I think the same active ingredient, imidacloprid) might work.

Dac may work on tip blight, I guess it would depend on exactly which fungus is the cause, and whether the dac was applied at the right time. My understanding is that the actual infection occurs at a certain time in the life cycle (can't remember exactly when that is, though it might even be the previous growing season - you'll have to check on that) and if you don't time the application(s) right, it may be ineffective. I have an austrian pine in my grow bed that gets tip blight every year, even though I apply dac and copper on a regular basis.

The reason I asked about repotting, is I had something similar happen to a larch last year. It was repotted (a "big" repot from nursery mix to more inorganic), started budding out normally, then suddenly many of the new growing tips browned out and died...very similar in appearance to what you posted. I lost a bunch of branches. Can't say for sure, but I suspect I put it back into full sun too quickly, thinking the roots had recovered.

Good luck, keep us posted.

Chris

 

[Paradox]

I dont think Daconil treats all fungus, no chemical commercially available to the public does as far as I know. That's why some of us alternate with a couple of things. I alternate Daconil with copper fungicide. You would have to consult the product label to be sure. I don't recall at the moment all the things it treats.

As Coh said, the timing of the application of the fungicide to when the infection occurred is important. For example, needle cast in pines infects the needles one full year before you see it so treating it only when you see it doesn't help much. You need to treat the year before.

If we can nail down exactly what this is or at least narrow it down, it will be a big help in figuring out what to treat it with.
Try cutting open the worst bud and see if you can find a worm in there.

I'm not familiar with the product you mentioned so I can't advise you.

 

[base797]

Just got back home and removed a bud, cut it in half and it appears pretty normal on the inside to me? It's lighter green in the very middle, but no critter cavity. Leaning towards a fungus/tip blight not controlled by active ingredient in Daconil.

Patrik

 

[Potawatomi13]

Well Patrik, cannot guess what it is but would also treat for bugs just in case. One positive note I believe spruces bud back well do they not?

 

[sorce]

I wonder if it's not just timing of spray.

I know if I was a spruce bud in the dry hot of Co. And I got sprayed with something that sounds toxic in the heat of the day....I would turn Brown, just to piss you off!

It's odd that the outer growth seems healthy.

Sorce

 

[armetisius]

phytotoxicity

 

[YukiShiro]

daconil's active ingredient is chlorine based(chlorothalonil), combine that with direct sunlight on new fresh leaves and you will get burn like that, after i spray daconil i keep my trees in filtered sunlight or shade for a while. I do this because there were times when I sprayed that i got a similar effect on new fresh growth on my conifers. The Sun is a bit intense where i live though....

also I've found that Daconil does nothing to already infected needles, it is a preventative spray to keep the infected needles infecting the healthy ones. You need a systemic to kill the fungus inside the infected needles to completely contain the fungus infection. I use benomyl in conjunction with daconil

best regards
Herman

 

[GrimLore]

phytotoxicity

I wonder if it's not just timing of spray.

You need a systemic to kill the fungus inside the infected needles to completely contain the fungus infection.

All valid and relevant to each other...

I will add that the substrate looks dry and the new growth not so robust. I found that when Spruce start to bud that applying Bayer All-In-One Rose & Flower care granular helps not only Spruce but also Pines, Cedars, and Conifers a LOT. It provides a light fertilizer, pesticide, and fungicide when you water without worrying about spray.
We had a long period of rain and when it started I put a healthy amount at the bases of each potted coniferous tree that was budding. After a few days of rain I was out there with Peters 20-20-20 and gave them all a good dose on the substrate. They all budded insanely again this year and the buds are healthy. Today is the 3rd dry day since. Yesterday I noted the brown shell like material on the buds was still attached although the base needles in each bud were visible. I carefully removed it to avoid an fungal or insect problems. Today the plants look good. Why I said all that? Those plants appear "to me" undernourished, under watered and a weak plant is more prone to many problems.

Here is a potted Spruce this morning -



A potted Mugo Pine -



Birds nest Spruce in the ground -



Blue Weeping Atlas Cedar in the ground -



With almost no maintenance and no sprays your trees can be healthy coupled with water.

Grimmy

 

[sorce]

Gotta second that....

We've had nothing but rain and dense fog....

All happy...

Except for a bit more rust on my buckys.

Sorce

 

[Paradox]

I don't know, I've sprayed daconil on my pines and junipers every 2 weeks from May to the end of September on bright, sunny days and I've never seen anything like this on any of my trees from it.

That said, it doesn't get real hot here normally until July and August, but I've still had no issues with daconil on my JBP when they are growing new shoots in August.

And yes daconil is mainly preventative to stop an infection from happening. I think most spray able fungicides are mainly preventative.

 

[M. Frary]

Check out gall ageldids.

 

[coh]

I apply dac in the late afternoon/evening. Actually, whenever I have to apply any chemicals I'll do it at that time, to avoid having strong sunlight on the plants while the chemical is still wet.

Boulder is at roughly 5000' elevation so sun will be quite a bit stronger there than around here. Patrik, what time of day do you typically apply? Maybe you mentioned it but I don't recall.

Good luck...let us know how things develop.

 

[Arcto]

Another thing to consider is a late freeze. I've had tender growth get hit while the rest of plant appears fine.