Could Daconil do this, if not, then what?

coh

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I was thinking about that as well. Weather in Colorado has been pretty erratic this spring, several big late snows.
 

base797

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daconil's active ingredient is chlorine based(chlorothalonil), combine that with direct sunlight on new fresh leaves and you will get burn like that, after i spray daconil i keep my trees in filtered sunlight or shade for a while. I do this because there were times when I sprayed that i got a similar effect on new fresh growth on my conifers. The Sun is a bit intense where i live though....

also I've found that Daconil does nothing to already infected needles, it is a preventative spray to keep the infected needles infecting the healthy ones. You need a systemic to kill the fungus inside the infected needles to completely contain the fungus infection. I use benomyl in conjunction with daconil

best regards
Herman
Thanks Herman. Great info man. I too have fairly intense sun, not like you, but more than most. I appreciate your thoughts and insight.
 

0soyoung

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I haven't (yet?) had the pleasure of such a problem. This is a curious one, however.

After some Googling I came across this diagnosis document from which there is an interesting suggestion: your bud issue may be due to frost damage. I recall that temperatures in Denver in January were in the 70Fs and that the traditional Easter snow storm happened - I do not know if there were hard freezes (several days below 32F) after January, but rather imagine the was.

What I find most curious is how the brown buds are so scattered and have no grouping pattern. It isn't at the distal end of a branch. It isn't from the base of the tree, spreading upward. It isn't spreading from any particular point. It is just here and there, and amid healthy new growth. Very un-bug-like. Very unlike roots. Very unlike a pathogen in the xylem. The 'over spray' idea seems 'spot on' (oh gawd, I amuse myself sometimes) but what about the possibility that it is just 'frost damage'?

EDIT ADD: I see @Arcto had the same idea - take a look at the pic on pp9 of the 'dignosis doc'.
 

base797

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image.jpeg image.jpeg
All valid and relevant to each other...

I will add that the substrate looks dry and the new growth not so robust. I found that when Spruce start to bud that applying Bayer All-In-One Rose & Flower care granular helps not only Spruce but also Pines, Cedars, and Conifers a LOT. It provides a light fertilizer, pesticide, and fungicide when you water without worrying about spray.
We had a long period of rain and when it started I put a healthy amount at the bases of each potted coniferous tree that was budding. After a few days of rain I was out there with Peters 20-20-20 and gave them all a good dose on the substrate. They all budded insanely again this year and the buds are healthy. Today is the 3rd dry day since. Yesterday I noted the brown shell like material on the buds was still attached although the base needles in each bud were visible. I carefully removed it to avoid an fungal or insect problems. Today the plants look good. Why I said all that? Those plants appear "to me" undernourished, under watered and a weak plant is more prone to many problems.

Here is a potted Spruce this morning -

View attachment 104676

A potted Mugo Pine -

View attachment 104677

Birds nest Spruce in the ground -

View attachment 104678

Blue Weeping Atlas Cedar in the ground -

View attachment 104679

With almost no maintenance and no sprays your trees can be healthy coupled with water.

Grimmy
Grime, I will look into the rose and flower granular. The tiny spruce actually stays too wet, if anything. It's deceiving due to inorganic substrate on and around a bunch of mountain soil. Was due for a repot, but too many others were ahead of it this year. I've got 200+ happy, healthy plants and not too concerned about the tiny one, but the other (bigger) one is a rather valuable tree, so a bit of concern there, but it has a hundred good buds popping. I'll attach another photo or two from today. Thanks a bunch for your input and thoughts, I appreciate it.
 

base797

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I don't know, I've sprayed daconil on my pines and junipers every 2 weeks from May to the end of September on bright, sunny days and I've never seen anything like this on any of my trees from it.

That said, it doesn't get real hot here normally until July and August, but I've still had no issues with daconil on my JBP when they are growing new shoots in August.

And yes daconil is mainly preventative to stop an infection from happening. I think most spray able fungicides are mainly preventative.
Sandy, my climate is fairly mild too (although I'm at 5600') and I'm not convinced it's the Daconil, but thought getting some info might be helpful. Thank you for your time.
 

base797

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Another thing to consider is a late freeze. I've had tender growth get hit while the rest of plant appears fine.
That could be it as well. As usual, it's been a complete roller coaster around here with temps up and down. However, these are both Engelmann so I would think they should be fine with fluctuations in and out of freezing considering the came from about 10,000'. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
 

base797

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Sorce and Chris, I typically apply after I get home from work and before dark, 6:30pm or later.
 

base797

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I haven't (yet?) had the pleasure of such a problem. This is a curious one, however.

After some Googling I came across this diagnosis document from which there is an interesting suggestion: your bud issue may be due to frost damage. I recall that temperatures in Denver in January were in the 70Fs and that the traditional Easter snow storm happened - I do not know if there were hard freezes (several days below 32F) after January, but rather imagine the was.

What I find most curious is how the brown buds are so scattered and have no grouping pattern. It isn't at the distal end of a branch. It isn't from the base of the tree, spreading upward. It isn't spreading from any particular point. It is just here and there, and amid healthy new growth. Very un-bug-like. Very unlike roots. Very unlike a pathogen in the xylem. The 'over spray' idea seems 'spot on' (oh gawd, I amuse myself sometimes) but what about the possibility that it is just 'frost damage'?

EDIT ADD: I see @Arcto had the same idea - take a look at the pic on pp9 of the 'dignosis doc'.
Oso, I always appreciate your pensive evaluation of things. It is quite erratic and none are are the terminal bud? I busted open a couple more buds and found no evidence of bugs, so that is all but ruled out as far as I'm thinking. I'm skeptical of frost damage due to the species, but I suppose it's possible and just because it has adapted to life at very high elevation in the wild, I shouldn't assume that it's bomb proof down here because it's just not the same (doubt it gets to 75+ when breaking dormancy up there, then freezing again), probably slower, more predictable changes with less variance. Thanks as always.
 

M. Frary

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Thanks Mike, I'll google those bugs.
We had this at the nursery I worked at. I can't remember what insecticide we used but it had to be either Sevin or malathion.
No all trees had them and it didn't to seem to hurt the tree. They wouldn't be on the same tree every year either.
 

wireme

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Here's an adelgid damaged bud. Looked down reading the thread and saw it on the ground!

More about them later.
 

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base797

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Here's an adelgid damaged bud. Looked down reading the thread and saw it on the ground!

More about them later.
Wire, turns out I'm quite familiar with them after all. We just called them (generic) galls. Lots of trees come down from the mountains with them. I remove them immediately as the cycle (from what I understand) is that they emerge and then typically move to a Doug fir or another spruce and wholly aphids follow. This spring, I've found one new one swelling so far and cut it off then burned it in the chiminea.

Patrik
 

GrimLore

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The tiny spruce actually stays too wet, if anything.

Understood, and a reason I recommended the granular as it does its best work when wet. That is why I stated watering... The reason I use it honest is we have some crazy cool wet weeks preceded by warm weather and a strong start to Summer. It is all the correct conditions for fungal, bacterial, and many bug infestations. Using a well rounded granular does our plants a LOT of good here so I shared the information. Good growing your way! ;)

Grimmy
 

0soyoung

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I'm skeptical of frost damage due to the species, but I suppose it's possible and just because it has adapted to life at very high elevation in the wild, I shouldn't assume that it's bomb proof down here because it's just not the same (doubt it gets to 75+ when breaking dormancy up there, then freezing again), probably slower, more predictable changes with less variance.

I was thinking and believe I didn't give this enough thought before I let my fingers wag :confused:.

The 70F days in January weren't a problem per se. Thanks to the miracles of abcissic acid, buds have a chill time requirement. Excursions above 40F have no effect until the chill time has been accumulated, then when it warms up the buds will break and the metabolic machinery in the buds starts up. This consumes the sugars that were around as antifreeze in fairly short order, so bud tissue is easily killed by a subsequent freeze. The fact it was 70F during January probably isn't relevant - more likely the perpetual Easter tradition or later, maybe. In other words, I'm suggesting that your brown buds were the first to crack and then got frozen. The others got their last bit of chill time then and broke when it warmed up a little while later (maybe ?).
 

base797

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So, I'm thinking this is a fungal manifestation that Daconil doesn't address. Reason being, Matt Reel was here last Thursday doing some shopping and we inspected many of my trees thoroughly, including the bigger one in this post. At that time there was zero evidence of any issues on any trees. Then, we had 3 cool, wet days in a row that ended Sunday and I first started noticing this Monday and Tuesday. I'm going to try alternating fungicides to see if that helps. Thanks for the help everyone.

Patrik
 

wireme

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Wire, turns out I'm quite familiar with them after all. We just called them (generic) galls. Lots of trees come down from the mountains with them. I remove them immediately as the cycle (from what I understand) is that they emerge and then typically move to a Doug fir or another spruce and wholly aphids follow. This spring, I've found one new one swelling so far and cut it off then burned it in the chiminea.

Patrik
You can blast them off the underside of the fir needles with water pretty easily if you get them as needles are extending and they haven't formed the white woolyness yet.

The things are rampant in these parts.
You guys can call me Monte if you want or remember.
 

base797

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I was thinking and believe I didn't give this enough thought before I let my fingers wag :confused:.

The 70F days in January weren't a problem per se. Thanks to the miracles of abcissic acid, buds have a chill time requirement. Excursions above 40F have no effect until the chill time has been accumulated, then when it warms up the buds will break and the metabolic machinery in the buds starts up. This consumes the sugars that were around as antifreeze in fairly short order, so bud tissue is easily killed by a subsequent freeze. The fact it was 70F during January probably isn't relevant - more likely the perpetual Easter tradition or later, maybe. In other words, I'm suggesting that your brown buds were the first to crack and then got frozen. The others got their last bit of chill time then and broke when it warmed up a little while later (maybe ?).
Damn, just when I thought it was fungal! The affected buds are smaller than the healthy ones so I assumed that they were "younger", but I suppose it's possible that they were just simply smaller due to stalling out after a cold snap and actually started the process earlier. Thanks Oso.
 

GrimLore

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(maybe ?)

My potted Junipers and Conifers were happy in December here and we had Rose Buds in December and fresh Roses indoors before a very cold snap on January coupled with a few feet of snow - it was crazy but really not unusual.
Funny part is the Potted and Landscape trees came out of it stellar and one Juniper next door, well not so good. It is doing far better now under my care but I am guessing 50 percent of it died back during that few short days of cold and snow. Now that it is perking up and has been trimmed out I am using that 3 in 1 on it for the remainder of the season.
Plants are strange sometimes...

Grimmy
 

wireme

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I still think budworm is possible, the first stages when they mine the needles, they are nearly impossible to see. Look for silky threads.
 
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