Couple questions on single flush pine.

maroun.c

Shohin
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Been watching many videos and presentations on punes but most I could find where about double flush ones.
Wondering about how you reduce the needles on single flush pine, understand that with double flush u candle and get a new flush with reduced needle size and u dont fertilize at that time frame. How about single flush? Will decandling reduce the needles.on next year buds? Air do u just rely on timing of fertilization to get the tree to be low on energy at the time of budding?

Also for back budding I'm seeing contradicting info where I see the following being memtioned:
-decandling and pine plucking will result in shorter needles, shorter Internodes and back budding ( I presume from.more sun reaching insides of the tree)
-if u want backbudding allow the tree to grow unpruned and the extended exchange between roots and foliage will result in.more.overall.activity which will result in backbudding.

Any cheat chart on when to fertilize, do major branch chops decandle, pinch or reduce needles, wire, and repot pinesmostly for single flush ( currently have mugo but believe all.single.flush are the same?) Would be great if u can point to a similar chart for.all pines if it exists.

Thanks
 

leatherback

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Overall one could say that in order to get backbudding, you need to get a tree healthy, full of energy going wild. Then you prune. All this energy and all the root activity needs to go somewhere: Buds are formed.

So the interaction and right timing of letting grow & pruning back is what enhances your backbudding.

I am very skilled at killing pines so I will not offer further recommendations :eek:
 
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I have a few hundred single flush pines.
Needle length is most affected by pot size; the smaller the pot, the smaller the needles will be because the pot can restrict growth with a huge effect. My red pine went from 10cm needles to 1cm needles when I planted it in an oyster shell.
Smaller containers also flush more easily, so nutrient restriction will have a greater effect too; if they are available for a shorter amount of time, and the amount of waterings is almost doubled (small containers dry faster), the plants just have a hard time picking them up.

I have noticed that if you keep feeding vigorously and keep the container size large, then the needles don't reduce even if you prune or decandle. With high nutrients I can even get my scots pines, 50 planted together in a small 14x20x2.5cm box, to get 6cm needles.

As for backbudding, single flush pines can 'back bud' in two ways: more buds on the apex and young growth (1-2 years) - note: this is not really backbudding - and backbudding in the sense that buds are formed on older wood (>2 years). For the 'young' backbudding, you can prune and decandle/remove shoots. For the 'old' backbudding, you'd need that unrestricted growth, and sunlight in the interior.

As you can read, it's usually a combination of multiple things and not just one. Different combinations can have different results.
Climate also plays a big part, but it's hard to predict for us how plants respond to that.
 

sorce

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I keep mine flooded and randomly fed for short needles!

Read about how "decandling" a double flush pine happens at the same time we "prune" a single flush pine. It's the same stupid thing.

Forcing back buds wastes energy, cutting back to them doesn't.😉
Same results.

Sorce
 

PiñonJ

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It depends whether you’re talking about long needle or short needle single flush. In either case, for back budding, fertilize heavily and don’t bud prune. Once in a bonsai container, the volume of the pot divided by the number of growing shoots will determine needle size (i.e. smaller pot, or greater number of shoots = shorter needles), but for more control of long-needle pines, once in refinement, don’t fertilize until fall. Short-needle pines, like Mugo, can be fertilized in the spring.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I keep mine flooded and randomly fed for short needles!

Read about how "decandling" a double flush pine happens at the same time we "prune" a single flush pine. It's the same stupid thing.

Forcing back buds wastes energy, cutting back to them doesn't.😉
Same results.

Sorce
Sorry, not even close.
 

River's Edge

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Simply restricting pot size, nutrients and water is a dangerous direction to alter the health and vigor of the pine.
Ramification using correct pruning and decandling techniques along with keeping the tree vigorous is the best combination.
Energy level divided by many more needles makes smaller needles!
 

PiñonJ

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Simply restricting pot size, nutrients and water is a dangerous direction to alter the health and vigor of the pine.
Ramification using correct pruning and decandling techniques along with keeping the tree vigorous is the best combination.
Energy level divided by many more needles makes smaller needles!
It’s a matter of balance. Pot size sets the limit of how small the tree can be and still have short needles. A tree should never be allowed to become unhealthy from limiting water and nutrients, but in a refined Ponderosa, for example, timing of nutrient application becomes more critical.
 

maroun.c

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Thanks for all the replies, have a mugo for now and will be adding a few more more soon. Needles are rather small but I fertilized thinking itll increase backbudding as im seing few buds back in some long nude branches. Guess it was a mistake. Will hold.off fertilizing till spring I guess.
 
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Are you in a stage of development where you need small needles then?
If memory serves me right, you have a recently repotted mugo pine from a nursery. If you're already doing styling and design AND ended up in the final refinement stage, you'd need to inform all of us on how you're keeping it alive! Mugo's usually don't like that much work in so little time.

Smaller needles are something you should go for only in the final stages of design, if you go for it now, the tree might be too weak to survive all of the work you have planned for the future.

Since you said pines are hard to get for you, I am hoping you don't go too fast with this one.
 

PiñonJ

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Thanks for all the replies, have a mugo for now and will be adding a few more more soon. Needles are rather small but I fertilized thinking itll increase backbudding as im seing few buds back in some long nude branches. Guess it was a mistake. Will hold.off fertilizing till spring I guess.
No, if you want back budding, you should fertilize heavily. And Mugos are short-needle pines anyway, so even in refinement you don’t have to worry as much about fertilizing (at least with regard to needle length). What I don’t know is whether a Mugo can survive in your climate. Does it get cold enough in the winter?
 

maroun.c

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Are you in a stage of development where you need small needles then?
If memory serves me right, you have a recently repotted mugo pine from a nursery. If you're already doing styling and design AND ended up in the final refinement stage, you'd need to inform all of us on how you're keeping it alive! Mugo's usually don't like that much work in so little time.

Smaller needles are something you should go for only in the final stages of design, if you go for it now, the tree might be too weak to survive all of the work you have planned for the future.

Since you said pines are hard to get for you, I am hoping you don't go too fast with this one.
Exactly, no still havent done anything to it and will definitely go slow. So far behind grasping pines that I want to be sure I have a step by step plan of action before doing anything, for this mugo and few pines and cedars I'm getting as well.

I have the following list of things to do, each of which I thought could mess up the small needle size which apparently isnt an issue with mugo:
October half bare root.
November- Dec cut 2.major branches (not confirmed)and Remove whorls of branches and weak buds to allow more light
Feb-May fertilise heavy
October, second half bare prune.
 

sorce

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ctober half bare root.
November- Dec cut 2.major branches (not confirmed)and Remove whorls of branches and weak buds to allow more light
Feb-May fertilise heavy
October, second half bare
@Vance Wood was just antiadvocating dormant work, or is your tree still growing in December like in California? If so it might not get cold enough.

Whacking a Mugo real hard is the only thing I've seen change the size of a needle. They get huge.

The healthy balance is utilizing the regular sized needle that does get smaller with health and ramification on a tree the appropriate size.

If you have to withhold water you picked a trunk that is too small, putting you out of a healthy balance.

Sorce
 

maroun.c

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No, if you want back budding, you should fertilize heavily. And Mugos are short-needle pines anyway, so even in refinement you don’t have to worry as much about fertilizing (at least with regard to needle length). What I don’t know is whether a Mugo can survive in your climate. Does it get cold enough in the winter?
Gets pretty cold and rainy temp down to 8-15 degrees celsius during winter Dec- Feb but we do get few sunny days in winter. Temp.might drop to.below 5 degrees celsius on cold stormy days and rarely below 0.donu think this will be ok ?
 

maroun.c

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@Vance Wood was just antiadvocating dormant work, or is your tree still growing in December like in California? If so it might not get cold enough.

Whacking a Mugo real hard is the only thing I've seen change the size of a needle. They get huge.

The healthy balance is utilizing the regular sized needle that does get smaller with health and ramification on a tree the appropriate size.

If you have to withhold water you picked a trunk that is too small, putting you out of a healthy balance.

Sorce
Early dec is beginning if winter so basically just start if dormancy. Should I work on the tree (remove branches before) I thought that would result in more sap bleeding which could affect the tree? When do you suggest I chop the 2 large branches I have in mind to chop and cleanup up multiple, as well as smaller branches emerging from same point.
 

maroun.c

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This is the best tree I could.source for this year and I'm.planing to work on. Needle size is at 2.5 -3cm at max and buds poping up.all over the tree and on long nude branches. Appreciate any info on when to:
Cut major branches
Cut small branches and few if the upper buds to allow more light in.
Repot (plan around mid feb)
Wire
Fertilize Screenshot_20190901-152756_Gallery.jpg
 

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