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Well here we go again.
Yes, it would seem so.

There is a great deal of artistry in fine woodworking.....
Okay, I'll bite, please point out the artisry in Al's stand for us and could you explain what makes it so?

...and there is a greatdeal of artistry in fine bonsai.
Yes, I have always said so and I have done much more than simply talk about it.

Your idea of what art is, is nonsense.
Really? To make such a insultive statement, you must know what my idea of what art is, could you please inform us on what it is? Do you even know or are you basing this opinion, like others, on nothing.

Your definitions are amorphous at best, refusing ever to define art. So you speak in circles about art and talent being some mystical numenous something that you get to decide who has it and who doesn't.
You are the only one who claimed to be able to define art and yet you refused to do so when challenged. I define bonsai and I also play a small part in deciding what is artistic enough to be called art on AoB, like it or not.

As an orginal founder on the only on-line forum dealing exclusively with the artistic aspects of bonsai, I have seen many attempts at art in bonsai, many failures, and some successes as well. I think we do an excellent job of featuring art in bonsai and to date I think we have successfully presented such. Not bad at all for someone you claim has no clue, huh?

What do you have to based your claims on?

As far as who does have talent in creating artistically sound bonsai and who doesn't, well I actively search them out every day of the week to be featured at AoB, I'll never get them all of course, but the ones we do get have real talent, our galleries prove it. Stay tuned for some of Dan Barton's work coming soon!

Those that do not have talent will never be featured. It takes far more than a single tree or a good teacher to prove talent. I am proud to say that I have helped to compile galleries of such talent, in which the standards are so high that I myself may never be featured. Talk about raising the bar higher than you can reach...well okay I did one photo essay, but not for trees.



When you can define in a simple sentence or two what you believe is the proper definition of art, then you may have the chance to actually teach someone something. Until then, just keep posting one out of every three posts on AoB. Someone other than the other 5 top posters may someday listen.

Your insulting attitude is the same as always Chris, it is refreshing to know that you never change. Let me explain (again) a few things to you, I could care less if you listen to me, I am not here to teach you or to learn from you, honestly your past history of personal attacks color anything you say and I have never felt you had anything of value to offer me, sorry.

I am a top poster at AoB, after all I am one of the editors. I also have quite a few articles there as well. However, as you failed to mention, some of the best artists in bonsai also contribute and post there, it is not however a discussion forum, although some of the articles there have recieved more hits than any other on any other forum, just the same. Record breaking contests, articles, and collaberations, I guess if I was going to be a top poster anywhere, that would be the place to do it, huh? Besides, since when is contributing to a forum a bad thing? How many posts can one make Chris before they are critized for posting too much? Considering that you are about even with me on this forum (both 400 posts ahead of anyone else), we are the top one and two posters here and you are the top poster on your own small forum and your blog, isn't your insult like the pot calling the kettle black?

Lastly, with articles published in Bonsai Today, American Bonsai Society's Journal, BCI's Bonsai Magazine, and in the next Issue of Bonsai Focus, I am almost certain that someone other than the top five posters at AoB listen.

Your breath smells of sour grapes Chris, give it a rest.

Back to the subject....

One would be very hard pressed to find stands of this quality in America, Al certainly knows his stuff, His stand that I have sits on display in my den all year long except for when it is at a show. Great work!


Will
 
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Tachigi

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Fellas, could you please save these type of exhanges for PMs or emails......while both of you have a lot to offer when you are focused on a topic. These exhanges are taxing on mind and soul.

The subject was Al's beautiful stand. State your opinion and agree or agree to disagree...Thank You
 

Smoke

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I see no correlation between stand making and bonsai design, but that in no way devalues Al's woodworking ability.

Will

There is no correlation between “building” a bonsai stand and bonsai design. However, there is a distinct correlation between “building a bonsai stand” and bonsai design.

This of course is from a lack of understanding. It’s not hard to expect this from someone who has neither built a stand for any tree nor custom built a stand for a specific tree. Building a bonsai stand to match to a tree is just as much work as making a good tree. The same exact rules apply and the similarities are staggering. First, the rule of thirds is the basic design element in any art form. It is used in composing photography and it is used in composing canvas art. It is called upon when placing elements in the Tokonoma and when placing the accessories around the tree in the Tokonoma. The rule of thirds is used when designing architecture and designing bridges.

The rule of thirds is used to design bonsai trees and to design bonsai stands. The rule of thirds is also used when matching a tree to a stand. This is how a harmonious composition is conceived. Off the shelf stands cannot compare to a custom built table when the builder has taken into account the size and shape of the tree, the height of the tree in relation to the table and the character of the tree in comparison to the table. All of the aspects are taken into consideration when building an artistic composition. Building a table for a particular tree is not just sawing some barn wood, gluing it together, and hoping it sticks. I take into account every part of the finished composition and how they will relate to one another.

Not only the size aspect of the composition, but also the aesthetic qualities of the tree while on the stand. What is trying to be accomplished when the tree is on the stand? Does the stand help tell the story the tree is telling? Does the stand run counter to the whole composition?

There is some good reading here on the rule of thirds or basic Fibbonace sequence, or better know as the Golden Mean. Like designing trees, the stand is broken into a series of thirds for maximum benefit of asymmetry. This rule of thirds applies to many parts of the stand as well as the tree. The tree looks best when the first branch is one third the height of the tree. The tree will look much more pleasing when the visual mass of the foliage is broken into thirds and distributed according to the rule of thirds. The rule of thirds is a basic artistic tool used throughout bonsai design whether in the tree, the stand, the display and the total composition as a whole whether in a Tokonoma or table top.

Wikipedia’s interpretation of art is as follows;

Generally art is a (product of) human activity, made with the intention of stimulating the human senses as well as the human mind; by transmitting emotions and/or ideas. Beyond this description, there is no general agreed-upon definition of art, since defining the boundaries of "art" is subjective, but the impetus for art is often called human creativity.[citation needed]

While my tables may be considered craft or skill, I feel that when combined with it’s intended counterpart, the tree, they reach levels of artistic merit. That is my goal. My table is evocative and stimulateing. Further I defie anyone to find a stand like this in America. That alone I feel qualifies as art. My collection of red marked pictures have been used to illustrate my intentions for keeping my tables in proper proportions and how they relate to the proportions of the tree when combined. The second picture shows how I designed the table so that when the tree is placed on it, the negative space created under the tree makes up the one third not taken with tree. I feel this is a key point when designing cascade tables. Even negative space must be taken into account when the tree occupies the stand. These red lines are not arbitrary, they are precise and can be measured. They are meant to be that way. Once again it takes an understanding of artistic principles to combine many asthetic qualities and mesh them into a cohesive piece of work. Of course my bench mark has never been whether Will Heath thought it was art anyway.

Also… I feel the quoted statement above was more of a cheap shot at Chris rather than a true statement. I feel that with a complete understanding of bonsai, tables and display, one could not seriously ever say there is no correlation between building bonsai stands properly and styling trees. The two are so intertwined that to try and separate them would be to remove the soul of the display.

Look all you want, you won't find this stuff in Willie Benz's book!
 

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Smoke

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BTW, this is a duplicate of the stand I already shipped to Texas. I made mine with the correct proportions for my intended tree. Anyone find the rule of thirds in this picture?

also included, a picture of the before....2002
 

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Vance Wood

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This is high craftsmanship at its finest, Al is the stand man!


Will

I agree, Al's stands stand on their own (couldn't resist the Pun), they are works of art and the picture does not do it justice. You really have to put your hands on one of them to realize just how well they are made.
 
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This of course is from a lack of understanding. It’s not hard to expect this from someone who has neither built a stand for any tree nor custom built a stand for a specific tree. ....

...Of course my bench mark has never been whether Will Heath thought it was art anyway.

Also… I feel the quoted statement above was more of a cheap shot at Chris rather than a true statement....

Usual demeaning attitude and pointless attempts to incite from the self-proclaimed begamouth of bonsai.

First, I have built a stand or two, before sales I was a carpenter for years, like my father before me and his father before him. You assume too much, as usual. Granted, my stands did not reach the quality of your own.

I knew someone would stretch the correlation and pull in basic principles of design to do so. By the logic above almost anything manufactured could be said to have a direct correlation with bonsai. "HI I make ashtrays and some of the design principles are the same as with designing bonsai."

Schematics.

The truth is that the deciding on the proportions of a stand to make for a particular tree is the exact same skills used to select a stand for a certain tree, lines, proportions, visual weight, etc all must be considered. It is the actual creation of the stand in which you excel, as opposed to selecting the right stand for a particular tree.

If you look back at all my posts, I have said nothing except how good you are at this, how nice the stand is, and how much I enjoy my own "Keppler Stand." I still stand by my words.

Look all you want, you won't find this stuff in Willie Benz's book!
I beg to differ Al.

Maybe you can suggest a book on cabinet making for the readers?


Will
 
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Bill S

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Okay, I'll bite, please point out the artisry in Al's stand for us and could you explain what makes it so?

Well( not misspelled) what a bunch of crap - take a look at the picture of the stand again! Assuming you did, now tell me where this design came from, hmm his mind, to the plan, to the shop, to the display. This to me is much much more artistic than the schmuck who drapes thousands of square feet of fabric around a park or swamp and everyone says oooo how beautiful. That guy is rated some big shot are tiste(sarcasm), what a crock!

This is from someone that is aweful with the usuall artists tools. I could give two flocks of flying sheep what the definition of art is, some can and some can't that's enough for me. If you think it's nice and I think it's a pile of sheep dip, and you want to pay for it then be my guest it's bothers me not.

Enough of the insitefull BS, it belittles all of us, and does little to promote any kind of usefullness.

Yes by the way you can get written instructions from someone to build an exact replica of this stand, try and do it is another story, (another by the way), the brace pattern doesn't come with the instructions you have to do this yourself, have at it and lets see what you come up with. Trust me it aint so easy, just the finish work alone is tough, wait to you get to the application of stains and sealers. Yes much of it is skills, some of it is pure artwork, and it;s a fine line inbetween.

Drop it will you all.

Big By the way - Al a real beauty, and I do understand what it takes for something like this, very nice, thanks for showing us. Good reply as well.

Thank you .
 

Tachigi

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OK....perhaps I'm missing something here. In the final display of the tree, stand, and accessories the artist is going for an artistic presentation. If the carpenter is designing a stand specifically for that tree, would that design of the stand not be considered art? If for nothing else its association with the composition? I have heard before that watching a skilled craftsman is like watching art in motion. If a potter can be called an artist and his pot called art. Why can't a carpenter and his stand be called an artist and art as well. Both the table and pot serve the same purpose.
 

irene_b

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I think some people just feel better when they start or finish the day belittling others and their works.
Real Sad to see that in a human.
Reminds me of the Crab story.
Irene
 
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Okay, I'll bite, please point out the artisry in Al's stand for us and could you explain what makes it so?

Well( not misspelled) what a bunch of crap - take a look at the picture of the stand again! Assuming you did, now tell me where this design came from, hmm his mind, to the plan, to the shop, to the display. This to me is much much more artistic than the schmuck who drapes thousands of square feet of fabric around a park or swamp and everyone says oooo how beautiful. That guy is rated some big shot are tiste(sarcasm), what a crock!

Thanks for your opinion. However, you failed to tell us why you would say this stand was art. People design furniture every day from thier minds...my brother in law designs bumpers for Ford, the design comes from his mind, by your definition, every bumper on every Ford is art. This is crap.

I have already stated that Al's stands are certainly high craft and possiby low art. I felt they were certainly unique and good enough that I supported featuring them in a gallery at AoB. Which should say enough. My actions speak louder than words.


Will
 
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I think some people just feel better when they start or finish the day belittling others and their works.
Real Sad to see that in a human.
Reminds me of the Crab story.
Irene

Please point out where anyone was belittled Irene. I have said over and over how nice Al's stands are, that I love the one I have, and how I felt so strongly about his work that I helped to feature his stands on a web site devoted to the artistic aspects of bonsai.

I don't expect a reply as your statement quoted is off topic and untruthful.



Will
 

JasonG

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Hi Al,

I am not going to continue the debate here..... but I will say that you make very nice stands!!

Good job, and I would be proud to own such a fine stand!

Thanks for sharing your pictures!

Jason
 

Rick Moquin

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Al,

Beautiful craftsmanship. I'm not too fussy with the cracked ice though, but that is just me.

For the rest YAWN!
 
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My table is evocative and stimulateing. Further I defie anyone to find a stand like this in America. That alone I feel qualifies as art.

Not true Al. I have a failed attempt at pottery who's like can not be found in the whole world, that hardly qualifies it as art. Rarity does not automatically qualify anything as art.


Tom brought up pottery as an art form, which it is. He asked why then can not stands be art. No one said they couldn't. There are countless examples of Chinese stands that can stand on their own without a tree as art, as can really good bonsai, or really good pottery.

Every bonsai does not qualify as art and certainly every pot or stand does not either.

Back to my original challenge. Which of the few people here that claims this stand is art can tell me why they think so?


Will
 
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Well Al beat me to it, but I still feel there are some issues worth discussing...

Other than the golden mean, there's also colour and texture, negative and positive spaces, directions (visual speed ect.) and the whole composition with the tree or in a three point display. Another thing would be what I call charachter (in lack of a better word) such as ruggedness or smoothness, or rigid and a more loose feeling (like a root stand compared with a stand like Al did in this thread) all of wich are things used or at least considered on every bonsai I've ever seen. That makes it a bit of a mystery to me to say that stand making and bonsai design have no correlation since you can't really build a stand without the aestethics (good or bad) and the same goes for bonsai...

To call this simply schematics is fine by me, I have no problem whatsoever with comparing ashtrays to bonsai when it comes to aestethics. As far as I'm concerned there isn't necessarily any different between the aestethics of bonsai and the aethetics of knitting or any other craft.

The distinction between "low-art" and "high-art" is a bit hard for me to understand. Could you please elaborate, Will?
 
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An Apoogy for making this Personal

Folks, before we go any further in this thread I would like to apologize.

Will,
I'm sorry I made this personal. There was no call for it. I let emotions get high in other threads and open up on this one.
 
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Other than the golden mean, there's also colour and texture, negative and positive spaces, directions (visual speed ect.) and the whole composition with the tree or in a three point display. Another thing would be what I call charachter (in lack of a better word) such as ruggedness or smoothness, or rigid and a more loose feeling (like a root stand compared with a stand like Al did in this thread) all of wich are things used or at least considered on every bonsai I've ever seen. That makes it a bit of a mystery to me to say that stand making and bonsai design have no correlation since you can't really build a stand without the aestethics (good or bad) and the same goes for bonsai...

This is my point. Stands have no more correlation to bonsai design then they do to painting, scupture, pottery, designing homes or bumpers for that matter. Saying that they use the same basic design principles is obvious. Obviously the way in which these time tested prinicples are put to use is completly different with each art form. A bonsai must be shaped and it's nature must be considered, what is not there now can be in the future, bonsai deals with time. Making a stand on the other hand, although using some of the same design principles, does not have the forth dimension of time, one can discard a piece, re-cut a piece, sand it down, stain it, re-work it, even toss it and start anew...it can';t die and once completed it is permament, unchanging, locked in. Bonsai differs from any other art form in this manner and as such there is no correlation between them and bonsai, they are different at the core even though the basic principles of design are the same.

The real talent in in matching the stand to the tree in order to present a visually successful marriage, not in the making of the stand itself. Think about this, is it not common to use a simple slab, a found object, or even a stone sometimes for a stand that works artistically with the tree? A stand in bonsai is an accessory, not unlike a mudman, a scroll, or a pot. The purpose is to accent the bonsai, not to take from it, not to outweigh it, but to compliment it....a stand can be favorablly compared to a frame around a picture...the right frame is not noticed but still lends to the picture. IS frame making an art form? In some cases yes, but on the whole, no.


The distinction between "low-art" and "high-art" is a bit hard for me to understand. Could you please elaborate, Will?


Start here and I'll be back.


Will
 
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Start here and I'll be back.
Will


Will,
Here's my dilemma. According to the citation to Wikipedia you made, bonsai would not be art, it would be craft. For example,
Most crafts require a combination of skill, speed, and patience, but they can also be learnt on a more basic level by virtually anyone. Many community centres and schools run evening or day classes and workshops offering to teach basic craft skills in a short period of time. Many of these crafts become extremely popular for brief periods of time (a few months, or a few years), spreading rapidly among the crafting population as everyone emulates the first examples, then their popularity wanes until a later resurgence.
The term craft also refers to the products of artistic production or creation that require a high degree of tacit knowledge, are highly technical, require specialized equipment and/or facilities to produce, involve manual labour or a blue-collar work ethic, are accessible to the general public and are constructed from materials with histories that exceed the boundaries of western art history, such as ceramics, glass, textiles, metal and wood. These products are produced within a specific community of practice and while they differ from the products produced within the communities of art and design, the boundaries of such often overlap resulting in hybrid objects. Additionally, as the interpretation and validation of art is frequently a matter of context, an audience may perceive crafted objects as art objects when these objects are viewed within an art context, such as in a museum or in a position of prominence in one’s home.

Now this is not taken out of context as I have quoted fully half the article.

What if we took this another direction? What is it about Al's stand that makes you say it is NOT art?
 
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Chris,of course bonsai can be a craft (even though I would argue that Al's stands and not bonsai fall into the definition above), if a person without artistic talent simply learns and applies the techniques required to produce bonsai, all they will produce is craft. The same could be said about painting, scupture, even music. Which leads us back to the core debate lately, talent is required to produce art, to turn the craft (if you will) into more, to make the object more than the simple sum of it's parts.

You reverse my own question without first answering the challenge I presented. I'll take that as an admission that you can not explain why Al's stand is art.

I will however explain why it I think it is not, because it can not stand on its own as such, indeed its sole purpose is to support the artistic merits of a bonsai. Alone it leaves no echo by itself. Calling it art is akin to calling a pedastal that supports a Ming vase in a museum, art.


Will
 
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You reverse my own question without first answering the challenge I presented. I'll take that as an admission that you can not explain why Al's stand is art.

Will

Will,
Reversing your own question without first answering it is a tactic I took from your playbook. It is what it is.

You are assuming that the tree is art and the stand the frame. But if the stand is built solely for one tree, and the stand has "talent" embodied in it, is not the art the combination of the two?
 
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