Creating Bonsai from small maple trees...

jkgarner

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I have acquired three maple trees. Well they were trees that were about 12 feet tall with trunks that are 2 to 3 inches in diameter, which were growing in 3 gallon pots at a nursery for several years. The owner and I cut the roots which had broken through the pots free from the ground, and topped the trees at about 18 inches. (horizontal cut) He is an experienced grower and produces many bonsai for sale, and told me that I could turn these into bonsai. Being game, I took the trees, and am now looking at what to do with them. (Yeah I'm new to this.) Aside from covering the wounds with a sealant, re-potting them into more appropriate pots, and spreading the roots out to get a wider, shallow root system, I do not see much else to do but let them grow a year or two and then start training the branches that form. I am welcome to suggestions. Any thoughts?
 

Shibui

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I don't bother sealing the first cut. First cut can be any angle because we cannot predict where the new buds will grow. After new shoots have emerged and grown strong we cut the remaining stump at an appropriate place and angle. That's the time to seal the new final cut.
I doubt you will be able to move many roots on a tree that size. It's more a matter of pruning the existing roots hard to form a shallow, plane of best lateral roots. Maple roots can be pruned as hard or even harder than the trunk and they will still grow new roots from the cut ends of each root.
Expect to spend 5- 10 years to produce reasonable bonsai from cut stumps.
 

sorce

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Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce
 

jkgarner

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Post pics. 18 inches sounds too tall, but hard to say.
They are just tall stumps. I could cut them shorter. But I would want to do that before re-potting, which I plan on doing tomorrow morning. If they sprout from the end (only) then they are way too tall. If they spout out the side, then maybe they will work at that height. I expect it will take several years before I get anything decent. That's why I started now... I'm getting old, and I always wanted to do this. Yeah, I got this little one (fourth) sapling as well, and I started a few junipers as well.
Like they say... go big or go home!

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jkgarner

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I don't bother sealing the first cut. First cut can be any angle because we cannot predict where the new buds will grow. After new shoots have emerged and grown strong we cut the remaining stump at an appropriate place and angle. That's the time to seal the new final cut.
I doubt you will be able to move many roots on a tree that size. It's more a matter of pruning the existing roots hard to form a shallow, plane of best lateral roots. Maple roots can be pruned as hard or even harder than the trunk and they will still grow new roots from the cut ends of each root.
Expect to spend 5- 10 years to produce reasonable bonsai from cut stumps.
Good to know about pruning roots on maples. Thanks.
 

Shibui

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I agree with cutting much lower. The vast majority of new buds will grow closer to the cut so cuts need to be low enough that those new shoots can then grow up to become the new apex. Generally first cut will be around 1/3 of the anticipated height of the planned bonsai. Imagine the taller tree 3 times as high as the current chop and decide whether that will look OK

The littlest maple is a Japanese maple but not so clear about the larger chopped trunks. Trident maples definitely bud better low on older trunks but sometimes Japanese maples do not respond quite as well to drastic chops so it could pay to reduce them in several steps over a few years rather than going right down on the first chop.
 

jkgarner

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I agree with cutting much lower. The vast majority of new buds will grow closer to the cut so cuts need to be low enough that those new shoots can then grow up to become the new apex. Generally first cut will be around 1/3 of the anticipated height of the planned bonsai. Imagine the taller tree 3 times as high as the current chop and decide whether that will look OK

The littlest maple is a Japanese maple but not so clear about the larger chopped trunks. Trident maples definitely bud better low on older trunks but sometimes Japanese maples do not respond quite as well to drastic chops so it could pay to reduce them in several steps over a few years rather than going right down on the first chop.
The three taller trees (chopped trunks) are green Japanese Maples. 1 is 19 inches, 1 is 22 inches, and 1 is 15 inches. I would like to end up with Trees that are about 3 feet tall, so according to what you said I would need to cut them all back to about 12 inches.
 

jkgarner

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OK, I got them potted. The 'pot' is a plastic hanging planter, with a drip saucer set in the bottom to make the "pot" more shallow. The "pot"s are 11 inches across, and the soil is 5 inches deep. mixed 7 gallons of soil mixture, and used 5 gallons between the 3 trees. Thanks for your words. Wish me luck! :)
 

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jkgarner

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Alright, I am completely new to this, as in never done it before, never even attempted to keep one someone else grew, just jumping in cold turkey, new: I now have several small Maple trees, I could use advice on watering, schedules, amounts, what to look for, tips tricks...
I live in the humid South-east U.S. where temperatures in the summer are in the mid to upper 90's (F) with humidity upwards of 60% (usually higher, closer to 80 or 90%) Rain fall can be severe and frequent, but we can also go a month or two with no rain. Currently they are on a shelf on my patio on the north side of my house where they receive speckled sun, shaded by adult trees.
 

Shibui

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Do not try to water any trees on a schedule. Watering must be done as required which can take some learning. Best technique is to dig a finger into the soil and check moisture BELOW the surface. If still moist leave it. Only water when the soil is likely to dry out before the end of the day. How often will depend on lots of factors - temp, humidity, soil type, pot size, tree size and vigour, etc. At some times of year that could be once a week, in warmer weather they may need water every day. In the heat of summer I water my maples twice a day. Beware of assuming that summer rain will have watered your trees. With small pots and lots of leaves the rain is often diverted away from the pots and does not reach the soil. Always check until you have a good feel for how the pots perform in your back yard.
Whenever you do water water enough so that the whole soil is wet. As a minimum water should run out the bottom of the pot but if the soil is dry we often need to water once then wait a few minutes then water again because initial water on dry soil tends to run around and through the soil without wetting it.
Japanese maples don't like really hot weather. Yours will probably need afternoon shade as a minimum where you live. The speckled sun through the trees will probably be OK through summer.

For now just concentrate on caring for the trees. Newly chopped and root pruned trees should be allowed some free growth to get re-established before any more pruning or training.
 

jkgarner

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How concerned should I be about cold temperatures (dropping below freezing) with newly potted Maples? We are expecting temperature in the upper 20's Tuesday morning? Based on my reading, once they have adjusted to their new situation, I expect the occasional upper 20's will not hurt them.
 

Shibui

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It does not get real cold here. Record min night time temps only down to-7C. More usual -2C or-3C so just below freezing so our soil never freezes.
I start digging and pruning tridents in mid winter and just bury the roots back in the soil or pot straight into pots so tridents here cope with radical root pruning and exposure outdoors to temps just below freezing without and problem at all.
Not having experienced it I cannot offer any help with colder temps.
 

Tums

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How concerned should I be about cold temperatures (dropping below freezing) with newly potted Maples? We are expecting temperature in the upper 20's Tuesday morning? Based on my reading, once they have adjusted to their new situation, I expect the occasional upper 20's will not hurt them.
Can you just put them in a garage or protected spot for one night?
 

jkgarner

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It does not get real cold here. Record min night time temps only down to-7C. More usual -2C or-3C so just below freezing so our soil never freezes.
I start digging and pruning tridents in mid winter and just bury the roots back in the soil or pot straight into pots so tridents here cope with radical root pruning and exposure outdoors to temps just below freezing without and problem at all.
Not having experienced it I cannot offer any help with colder temps.
The coldest I've seen here in 28 years is 20 degrees F, which is -6.6C. Most years we get a few nights at -24F, which is -4.44C. This year we've seen several nights at 27F (-2.8C) and 29F (-1.67C). I've left the maples out, because I know they can handle it. They are also in much large pots. 11 inches across by 5 inches deep. I don't know about the Junipers that I re-potted this week. They are much smaller. 7 or 8 inches at 2 inches deep. I brought them into the house for the night. Perhaps that was a mistake. Spring is around the corner. My first daffodils bloomed a few days ago, and the rest are growing. All the trees will start becoming active in a few weeks.
 

jkgarner

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Can you just put them in a garage or protected spot for one night?
No garage. Though your comment give me an idea for how to handle it next winter. Like I said in my previous post, spring is just around the corner.
 

Shibui

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The coldest I've seen here in 28 years is 20 degrees F, which is -6.6C. Most years we get a few nights at -24F, which is -4.44C. This year we've seen several nights at 27F (-2.8C) and 29F (-1.67C). I've left the maples out, because I know they can handle it. They are also in much large pots. 11 inches across by 5 inches deep. I don't know about the Junipers that I re-potted this week. They are much smaller. 7 or 8 inches at 2 inches deep. I brought them into the house for the night. Perhaps that was a mistake. Spring is around the corner. My first daffodils bloomed a few days ago, and the rest are growing. All the trees will start becoming active in a few weeks.
Those temps sound so much like we have here. Without knowing other factors I'd say we could treat trees much the same.
I would not be bothering taking trees inside with temps like those. Even very small shohin sized trees stay out all year round here, even after repotting with the exception of tropicals like ficus.
Junipers are even hardier than maples so don't bother taking them indoors either however having them inside for a night won't have done any harm.
 

jkgarner

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You're at 36°19' S Lat 146°50' E Lon in Yackandandah, Victoria, Australia. 100 miles from the coast.
I'm at 32°19' N Lat 86°15' W Lon Montgomery, Alabama, USA, 135 miles from the coast.
Your latitude is more similar to Nashville, Tennessee, and would tend toward colder than mine, however, the proximity of the coast probably tempers your climate a bit. The humidity around here tends to be high most for the year. Mold and moss are issues that we must deal with. I am not sure what the humidity levels are where you live. Humidity will effect how quickly the soil dries out. Otherwise, I expect the treatment of plants would be similar between our to locations.

FYI: I have a few connections to the land down under: My Mother-in-law grew up in Glenelg, just outside Adelaide, and came to the US to get married. My wife's Auntie Chris, lives outside Brisbane. I believe my wife's uncles, Ian and Martin, live in Adelaide, though we have not talked with the uncles recently. Even after 2 generations, the australian accent is still detectable in my children. Many question me why they have a British sounding vowels, instead of the thick southern drawl so prevalent around here. I smile and simply say we home-school.

About 11 years ago, my work took me to Canberra for 3 weeks. I spent a half a day at the National Bonsai and Penjing Collection of Australia (https://www.nationalarboretum.act.g...al-bonsai-and-penjing-collection-of-australia) It was an inspiration.

Because of our family situation, I could not keep any kind of plants at the house, let alone attempt bonsai. Last spring, our family situation changed, and I decided to start keeping bonsai, and determined to start over the winter. It is the end of winter here, and trees will start the spring sap flow soon. I now have 8 trees that I started over the last week: 1 Eastern red Cedar, pulled from my son's yard. 3 Maples stumps that I estimate are about 10-15 years old, a maple sapling of 3 years, and 4 junipers that I picked up at the local nursery. In addition to these, I have a few clippings that I am trying to root, and a small juniper branch that still has root that I potted to see it it will grow. Right now, everything is on my North facing patio, which has speckled sun being filtered by the trees overhead. I believe this is about perfect for the maples, but may not be enough light for the junipers. At present, I do not have another spot for the bonsai.
 

Shibui

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You're at 36°19' S Lat 146°50' E Lon in Yackandandah, Victoria, Australia. 100 miles from the coast.
I'm at 32°19' N Lat 86°15' W Lon Montgomery, Alabama, USA, 135 miles from the coast.
Your latitude is more similar to Nashville, Tennessee, and would tend toward colder than mine, however, the proximity of the coast probably tempers your climate a bit. The humidity around here tends to be high most for the year. Mold and moss are issues that we must deal with. I am not sure what the humidity levels are where you live. Humidity will effect how quickly the soil dries out. Otherwise, I expect the treatment of plants would be similar between our to locations.
Direct translation of latitude between north and south does not quite work out in practice. In general southern hemisphere seems to be warmer than similar latitude in the north. Ocean currents add even more complexity to local climate so some areas at the same latitude have completely different climates.
Probably better to look at temps and humidity than latitude.
Down here it tends to be on the dry side. Rainfall is around 37 inches a year with most falling through winter and spring. Summers quite dry and fire prone like California.

Good luck with your new trees. We often talk about optimum conditions for trees but most species will cope well with less than ideal conditions.
 

jkgarner

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Good luck with your new trees. We often talk about optimum conditions for trees but most species will cope well with less than ideal conditions.

The same can be said about people... we can actually thrive in sub-optimal conditions. Thanks.
 

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