Creating low branches

[Defect]

Hello,

So I have a some young pines(about a year old) Red and black pines. I am wondering what should be done to them to create low branching. I know they are very apically dominant trees. Not sure if I should just throw them in the ground and let them go or give them some special treatment to give them better branching. I have read some pruning techniques and what not but nothing that refers to seedlings.

Thank you.

 

[bonsai barry]

I'm not an expert about pines but I do have a few in the ground growing. I don't try to create new branches as much as encourage the branches that shoot out naturally. I make sure that the lower branches get plenty of sunlight which means cutting back a lot of the upper growth. I think that cutting the upper growth also encourages back budding in the lower sections.

 

[Defect]

Alright, I will go ahead and throw them in the ground. The black pines seem to have some nice low branches but the red pines are just growing straight up with no branches at the moment.

Thanks for the reply and tip.

 

[Harunobu]

From my experience the only reliable way is to cut off the trunk just above the spot where you want have most of the new branches. Then they will grow there and some will grow lower as well. Pruning the new growth won't create backbudding way lower.

I understand that the trunk has needles until it is older than 3 years. So then the only way is to cut back the trunk back at least one year + the new growth. Maybe even cut two years back.

A pine that has no low branches at all is pretty useless unless it already had character.


Some people have said to just let them grow as strong as possible with as many needles as possible. Others have suggested plucking needles. For me this has not worked on my Scot's pines.

 

[Defect]

A pine that has no low branches at all is pretty useless unless it already had character.

Exactly why I was asking this question Trying not to have a tree grow for years and years and not be workable. Thank you for the advice.

 

[Harunobu]

Maybe someone with actual tons of experience, which we have on this forum, can chime in. Doing a trunk chop will significantly slow down the growth rate. JBP may also be different in that respect. The Scot's pine in the wild here grow straight up, have long internodes, and their low branches die off rather fast.

 

[Bill S]

A lot depends on species, a scotts can bud back, as a pitch pine will, no chopping further back on a pine than where the foilage starts, this makes finished bonsai.

Grafting a branch where you want one is a standard option, but having a branch doesn't mean character. You can add that with wire, shari's and jins, chops to change directions etc. Check Growing Black pines at Brents articles at Evergreen Garden works.

 

[Defect]

Thanks guys, I will check into that.

 

[cmeg1]

With JBP from seed I wait till' the beginning of the third year so the plant get's strong.In the third year let the candle mature to a shoot and then remove it.A bunch of buds will replace it.I would probally do that mid summer or a tad later.The later, the more small the new buds will be(they completeley grow needles and a terminal for next year).I then choose two to keep.It seems that on well grown JBP from seed that there are usually some bottom branches already forming in the first year.Definately by the third year.
My two favorite method for JBP from seed is the colander method and the method where you you just put a seedling in a pot.I have seen pictorials of both.The colander method is in the'Pines'book from stone lantern.I seen the pot method in bonsai today where in the third year all the branches where treated as the final branches in the design.In five years it started to look real cool.In the 30th year the tree was very well balenced masterpiece.
You should look at Bien Van Fleet's website to get an understanding of how JBP grow.

 

[biglou13]

how old are seedlings?


technique 1: A:fall / B: spring i cut back all of last years growth B: is better
technique 2:spring keep 1 strong apical branch/leader with heavy needle thinning, remaining branches cut last years growth and needle thinning , pruned middle area so light would hit low trunk, if whorl started on upper branches they got pinched to 2 buds, all buds on trunk not wanted rubbed off. this had better results.

i was rewarded with some vigorous back back budding. I've done some version of this for a few years. Finally almost all 90% have, or have had low bud breaks for future branches. I have trees both in ground and in smart(er) pots. now its wait and feed............

 

[Defect]

I am thinking that the 2 small ones are a little over a year and the taller on would be maybe 2 years just judging from the bark on the taller one. The black pines seems to have some lover branches as you can see. The JRP has nothing but needles, maybe wait till next year and chop this years growth? Also the taller JBP has 3 branches growing on the lower branch at the moment and I think from what I am reading is that I should take one of them off. There are 2 longer shoots and one smaller shoot coming almost out of the same place. I am assuming that I should take one of the longer ones off?

Thanks for the help. I did read Brian's tips and it help me out.

Edit: I will be putting these either in the ground or in bigger pots.

 

[biglou13]

ok too small for my notes

there is a school of thought that suggests to grow in four inch pot, the congested root mass may produce shortand low internodes . this could take 2 years in 4" pot

i think your best off planting in smart pot/ pond basket get them established then in ground, then revisit my notes when they are a 2-3 feet. my notes are strictly JBP i have no experience other than

 

[Defect]

Will do, I will give an update next year

Thanks

 

[Harunobu]

Defect1, concerning seedlings this size, I have one Scot's pine seedling collected from the forest to find out how well my best theory on what to do works. In June, I plan to cut the central new candle in half and the other candles that grow from the same spot back to 1/3rd or so. This doesn't require you to cut back one year worth of growth but hopefully gets the same result.

If you want to try the cutting away one year worth of growth method, you can wait 2 years with these, I'd guess.

 

[pwk5017]

Ok, before you cut back anything, or rub off buds etc. get them all in much larger containers in an inorganic mix. Once this is done you can begin the time tested regimen of alot of water and alot of fertilizer equals vigorous and healthy trees. Vigorous growth--through perfect growing conditions--will most likely pop a couple buds down low(where old needles used to be from year one). I have seen this alot growing JBP and JRP from seed over the last 5 years. I will take pictures of my 2-3 year old seedlings that are still popping new buds down low. In fact, I have 5 year old pines that are producing new buds 1/2" from the soil. You need a healthy and vigorous plant before you can hope to gain lower buds. A weak plant strives for leggy higher growth in an attempt to survive. A pine in luxurious growing conditions has life so good that it can and will produce much lower growth. I will take pictures tonight or tomorrow when it stops raining.

 

[Defect]

Awesome, thank you. I was planning on putting them into some 1 gallon pots tomorrow actually. I need to go and pick up some more pumice and sand tomorrow as well.

 

[pwk5017]

Ok, I am late, but I am back with my photos. I havent been getting back from the office until 7-8, and by then I just want to water the trees and chill. Alright, my first example is of a 4-5 year old JBP from seed that did NOT have low buds last year. You can see it is growing pretty well with candles at or over a foot in length. Without any form of pruning or bud trimming, there are many new buds forming at the soil level. Next, I decided to choose a tree of similar age to show that once you have a couple low buds you typically get many more in the following years. You can see a mini candle extending(previous year's bud growing well) about an inch up the trunk. This spring that area is covered in buds. Finally, not all trees push low buds. For whatever reason, this tree does not have any buds within 2-3" of the soil. It has needles there, which makes me confident I will get several lows buds in the following years. These are my examples of slightly older stock that, under the right conditions, will produce low buds most of the time.

 

[pwk5017]

I took a couple pics of younger trees that would be slightly more applicable to your material. The 2 year old JRP is an example of a leggier seedling being transplanted into inorganic soil and being fed very heavily. This one has about 3-4 buds about 3/4-1" from the soil. Not the best case scenario(I want buds on top of the nebari to get the absolute best nebari flare), but still not too bad. An inch from the soil is still fine if you are shooting for a nice base for a tree like 18" or more high. Lastly, I snapped two pics of what you commonly get with cutting grown JBP seedlings. I grow about 200+ JBP seedling cuttings a year and cull the less than stellar ones over the years. Well, about 75% always have super low buds like you see here. The one has 2 buds about 1/16" above the nebari. If you want a sumo like shohin then this is what you look for, so you get beefy taper. The other one has 3-4 much stronger buds about 1/4" from the nebari.