Cristmas get-together with ginger cookies and esthetics

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Christmas get-together with ginger cookies and esthetics

Since that tangents-thread is dying because of me, I thought we could revive the "community critique, anyone?"-thread instead and see if we could make something worthwhile out of it. Participation is volountary.

If anyone doen't have a better idea I suggest we go with Toms idea and choose a tree? Martin had a great idea about chosing a tree from the "auction of the month".
 
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rlist

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Yes, please proceed. I suggest Da Nut submit a new tree from his source and then we call all start from scratch.
 

chansen

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I'll second the motion. I think the information you've shared on design techniques has been great.
 

irene_b

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Motion passed...Now shall we go forward?
Mom
 

Martin Sweeney

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All,

In his Community Critique Anyone thread No it's Not... wrote:


"So, this is how I thought it should work:
First, we decide what element is the most important in defining the character of the tree, the element that makes it special and separates it from all the other trees you've seen (my suggestion is the trunk inthis case, but I'd like some input about that). What element we choose is not that important, so there no need to discuss what the most important element in general is. Just say trunk, foliage, deadwood or whatever you find most appropriate.

Then we add another element to the image and we all analyze the relation between them. My suggestion is that I'll make simple questions (like wich one dominates the other, or wich direction does it lead the eye etc.) and then together we try to improve the image. There's no "skill" or "talent" required to participate, just go with the gut!!!

After that we can add a third element or replace one element with another and do the same thing again. Hopefully we'll notice that we will have to make changes to the elements we've been through to make them fit when we finally put the whole image together.

This really needs a steady group of members constantly contributing for the thread to move forward, and to keep it interesting. Hopefully someone can learn something.

Whaddya say, anyone up for it?"


If it is OK with BonsaiNut, I submit that we discuss the tree in the Auction Bonsai of the Month - July, 2007 thread, although I do not know how to get the picture in that thread into this one. I think the nebari / root base is the defining element of the tree.

If this works for everyone, please continue this thread with BonsaiNut's approval. If not, suggest away!

Regards,
Martin
 

Bonsai Nut

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If this works for everyone, please continue this thread with BonsaiNut's approval. If not, suggest away!

Regards,
Martin
You don't need MY approval :) Just do it! :) As it is, with all of my other lives, I sometimes have a hard time updating the site (though a forum shouldn't need much updating). I already had the December Bonsai of the Month ready back around Thanksgiving, but haven't been able to post it yet :) So move forward, and hopefully I will catch up!
 
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It's a good suggestion Martin, but the picture in that thread is so small it's gonna be hard to make virts from it :(
 

rlist

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Since the committee can't come up with a choice, and Walter has given his approval (and his photos are large enough and very virt-able), I have chosen this spruce to proceed with. I am sure everyone can find something to say (either positive or negative) about the tree, it is far from cookie cutter, and I am excited to find out how ginger cookies play into the future design of the tree.

From: http://walter-pall.de/Super shots/
 

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Awesome! Please post a link to where you got the picture too so Walter won't be mad.

I'll simplify the image so we can start, then I post it here.
 
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Ok, this is my suggestion as where to start.

This is only the main trunkline of Walters tree as it appears in 2d. I'm aware of the fact that it looks different in 3d, but that doesn't really matter for now.

What I suggest we do is make the trunk look as we would want it to look without the restraints of time or what's "possible". The trunk may be impossible to bend in real life but that doesn't matter. You may want to keep it close to what would be possible or not, the choice is yours. The point is to make it work from an "artistic principle" point of view regardless of how wild (or not) you decide to make it. Try to forget the usual rules like "a trunk should have taper" and that sort of stuff. That doesn't mean that rule is BS, just try to analyze what happens when the trunk has reverse taper and why that is good/bad. Try to keep that frame of mind throughout the design. If you know it's bad, do it anyway and try to decide why it's bad instead of relaying on the fact that the "rules" say it's bad. It's not vital in any way to consider the colour that represents the trunk an actual trunk. If it helps, think of it as a blob of colour that you want to make as interesting as possible. Just remember that we'll add more elements as we go along.

There's no goal here. Try to explore different options, keep the ones you like and try to make the bad ones work. You can post as many different options as you like and you can change your mind whenever you want to. Take other ppls suggestions for what they are, suggestions.

When everyone has a trunk/trunkline they're satisfied with and we'll add more elements to the design.

For those of you that have absolutely no clue as to where to start:

1. Remember the tangents. Make sure objects either overlap or have some distance.
2. Unity: make all elements work together without anything sticking out. Straight trunk=straight branches. If you decide to design it otherwise, explain why.
3. Incorporate elements that stand out by adding more. If you decide to design it otherwise, explain why.
4. Activate the whole image. Do not make a design that split the image in half (like the rule "no bar branches).
5. Avoid being repetetive in a bad way. Arranging objects in groups might be a good way to avoid this.
6. Don't forget that the negative space is just as important as the positive space!

This is a community effort, I'm not the one that's gonna tell you what works and what doesn't. WE ALL ARE!

Try to be as clear as possible. When you post a pic, explain the decisions made not just "this is what I came up with". Try to analyze your own work. If you have no idea what to write, use the 1-6 above and ask yourself questions like "did I make the best of the negative space?" or "did I split the design in two?" etc.

Ask questions if there is anything that need to be further explained.

And most important: HAVE FUN!
 

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I forgot some stuff. It really helps if you have a software that has a "layer" function, such as Photoshop elements (I think Paint Shop Pro has layers as well). It's not impossible to work with Paint but it's not as fun and takes more time.

The green dot in the upper left corner of the pic in the post above is a suggested color for foliage, but do NOT add foliage or deadwood at this stage (we'll get there eventually).
 

cray13

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Just a quick FYI.

Here is a free Paint program that was originally written by several college undergrads as a senior design project. They are still maintaining it today. I use this program often.

http://www.getpaint.net/

It's basically Paint on steroids, and it has layering.
 

cray13

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Trunkline

Ok.

I'm not completely sure what was expected here, but here's something to get some discussion started.

The first image is the original virt as presented.

In the second image I've extended and jinned the low sweeping branch a bit as well as added a small back branch ( darker brown for depth ) and I've added another small branch closer to the apex. In this image I'm thinking the low sweeping branch will be prominent in front of a backdrop of foliage. This will present depth and present good contrast between the jin and the green foliage behind.

In the third image I've reduced the sweeping branch, seperated it more from the trunk and added a forked jin.
 

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Good going cray13! In the future, try to avoid adding elements like deadwood and Jin because we will do that later. My point was to try and make the trunk stand on it's own so to speak regardless of what will come next (such as foliage, deadwood etc).

What I mean is don't plan ahead. Sure, there will be foliage and stuff but disregard that at this stage.

I like that you separated the main branch and trunk a bit, and also that you added some movement to it! I'll post at least one contribution later this evening.
 

Tachigi

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The trunk may be impossible to bend in real life but that doesn't matter.
Emil, Not to distract you from the road you want to take us down. However, I am having a difficult time getting past some of your statements, so I have some questions about this application. Forgive the intrusion.

What I think your going after is the idea of designing a tree with principles of art applied. I am good with that and understand. What I don't understand is since we work with in certain parameters in bonsai when designing, creating art or whatever your favorite title is. Why are we abandoning those immovable constraints, such as bending a trunk that can't be bent? Why aren't we applying these rules to a given model that has certain limitations.

I have seen this done in realtime when a bonsai image is concieved. Requiring the designer to do things to a tree that physically can't be done or jeopardizes the health of the tree. Frustrating the artist and ultimately dooming the design. As the saying goes we need to work with the tree and what it has to offer. So, shouldn't we be applying these "rules" of art to this given tree?

Once again sorry for the distraction
 
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