Cut back on a JBP

[Adair M]

This JBP is about 100 years old. I aquired it in January 2015:



The needles were really, really short. Too short. The long ones were 3/4 inch, and the short ones were 1/4 inch.

I didn't have time to do anything to it at that time.

May 201 before decandling:



May 2015 after decandling:



I also pulled those old 3/4 inch needles. And removed the moss covering the nebari. The chopstick indicate the front. It's an old tree, the bottom branches are really heavy. The lower left one is getting long...

November 2015. Time to wire:

Before wire:



Ahh... Good healthy growth. Time to pull the old 1/4 inch needles and wire!

This is a 14 inch tall tree. So getting my hands in there to wire without breaking needles is difficult, slow and tedious. It took me two full days to pull old needles and wire.

After wiring:



As you can see, the bottom left is getting too long. But it's wiring down, and guy wired down.

We will have to wait...

No work was done in January 2016. I would have liked to have repotted it, but the guy wires are anchored using wires coming up thru the drain holes of the pot. Repotting ruin all the guy wire work.

June 2016 before decandling:



As you can see, the tree is responding well!

 

[Adair M]

After decandling:



AND, we took a large section of the lowest left branch off! Looks better, doesn't it?

At the next repotting, I'm going to remove that root that's growing out of the center and going to the left. I think that will better balance the nebari.

 

[JudyB]

I really like this tree! But for some reason I like the image better before the lower branches were pulled down.

 

[hemmy]

You wired Nov. 2015, how long do you think you will have to leave it wired? And do older slower growing branches take longer to set?

 

[0soyoung]

I really like this tree! But for some reason I like the image better before the lower branches were pulled down.

I'm with you Judy.

IMHO, the branches are now too flat, but its tough to bend old JBP branches much; flattening/straightening them is about the only way they can be 'lowered'. So maybe I'll give @Adair M a pass this time. Still, someone who is really good with trees would make it the way we like .

 

[coh]

I think in the "before" images the tree looks like a pine tree trying to be a deciduous tree, which is somewhat ironic since people are always complaining about deciduous trees being styled to look like pines. Now it looks more like a pine. I do think the lower left branch is still a bit too long.

More importantly, I'm impressed by the use of guy wires.

 

[JudyB]

As I look at the images I think it's just that I can see more of the actual branch when it's not lowered. I tend to like seeing the branch edges. But I agree also @coh. It does feel like a pine more in the lowered image.

 

[Adair M]

You wired Nov. 2015, how long do you think you will have to leave it wired? And do older slower growing branches take longer to set?

JBP wil always be wired. The wire stays on until it starts to cut in, or until the tree grows out far enough that the wire is no longer effective. I expect the wire I placed on this tree will be there for another couple years. Yes, older trees that are more "finished" aren't growing as rapidly, therefore they put on fewer new cells of trunk or branch. Young rapidly growing trees put on lots of new cells. It's the new cells that hold the bends in place. Also, "sappier" trees take longer to set than others.

 

[Adair M]

I think in the "before" images the tree looks like a pine tree trying to be a deciduous tree, which is somewhat ironic since people are always complaining about deciduous trees being styled to look like pines. Now it looks more like a pine. I do think the lower left branch is still a bit too long.

More importantly, I'm impressed by the use of guy wires.

That tree is 14 inches tall. The lower trunk between the nebari and the first branch is about the size of a Coke can. The first and second branches are about an inch and a half in diameter. Way too thick! But there's little I can do about them short of grafting on new ones.

Those branches are very stiff. Very old. I put on number 6 copper. Very heavy wire for such a small tree.

@coh the guy wires... Guy wires are very useful when used properly. They can also be ineffective or even detrimental when used improperly.

Here is what we had to do to bend those branches:

After I completely wired the tree, which took 2 full days, I ran a loop of 18 gauge copper up thru a drain hole, emerging where I wanted to have the leverage to hold the branch.

I then wired a two foot long piece of rebar under the branch. I padded the places where the wire holding the rebar touch the branch with bicycle tire rubber. I made sure to leave about a 1/2 inch gap between the end of the rebar and the trunk on the underneath of the branch.

Next, I took a 2 inch piece of window spline bent it into a U shape and cut across the bottom of the U. Put it upside down across the top of the branch. I ran each end of the guy wire into opposite sides of the window spline. The ends came out at the bottom of the upside down U. With my fingers, I twisted the two ends. There's no pressure on the guy at this point. We're just getting ready. Cut off excess twist, leaving about 3/4 inch sticking straight up.

Then, it took 3 of us! One guy held the tree and pot down firmly. The tree was wired securely, but you never know, and you certainly don't want to rip the tree up out of the pot! I grabbed the end of the twisted wire with Jin pliers. Boon operated the rebar. He put one hand on the branch, and the other on the end imif the rebar. And pushed down. As he pushed down, I pulled up on the guy wire taking up slack, and when I had some, I twisted the two ends. It's somewhat tricky to keep the window spline in place as I was pulling it up with the wires. I used my other hand to keep it pushed down on top of the branch as I simultaneously took up slack with the pliers.

Note: my twisting did not tighten the guy. I just took up slack. Boon provided the downward force. He created slack. I took up the slack. When he released his downward pressure, the guy wire was able to hold it in place. If we had tried to twist the guy wires together to pull the branch down, it would have broken. Or we would have had to use really heavy wire. This method allows you to apply remarkably strong force, and use thin wire.

We gave it three good pushes to lower the branch into what you see. Boon applied so much downward force, he was almost off his feet!

I then removed the rebar.

Same process on the other branch.

 

[drew33998]

It looks like there are two branches originating from that lower left branch. A smaller one that comes out toward the front of the tree. Why not cut back to that branch and use it as the new first branch?

 

[dirk hoorelbeke]

Lovely! Happy pine... The discussion of lowering that branch is nice to follow. We have to keep in mind that lowering the branch now is for making it look good in 10 years. By then the pad will fill up more, and more of the branch structure will be visible. Tadaa. At least that is the way i see it. Might be wrong.

 

[coh]

Note: my twisting did not tighten the guy. I just took up slack. Boon provided the downward force. He created slack. I took up the slack. When he released his downward pressure, the guy wire was able to hold it in place. If we had tried to twist the guy wires together to pull the branch down, it would have broken. Or we would have had to use really heavy wire. This method allows you to apply remarkably strong force, and use thin wire.

Yes, of course. I've used this type of procedure to bend a juniper trunk. It certainly is easier when you have more than 1 person. If you are alone, you can use the heavier wire and twist as you mention, then once the branch is set at the proper angle, you can replace that heavy wire with a thinner one. Different path, but should be the same result. I've done that as well.

 

[Adair M]

As I look at the images I think it's just that I can see more of the actual branch when it's not lowered. I tend to like seeing the branch edges. But I agree also @coh. It does feel like a pine more in the lowered image.

Ok, you like seeing a bit of the branch structure below, and the foliage above?

That will happen when the new buds emerge after decandling. JBP look a bit like Charlie Brown's Christmas Trees right after decandling and wiring. The new buds grow up, so when wiring, you have to anticipate that and wire the tips down more than you would expect. In fact, when I would wire and set branches, Boon would come around and correct my wiring by pulling the tips down. What I never liked was having needles point down, so I would set them facing up too much. So my next idea was to wire them out flat, and pull the downward growing needles. No, that 's not right, either!

The correct way is to have the last little bit of wire make a supporting little fishhook on the end that runs just under the tuft of needles, supporting them, so that they don't point down, they point out.

 

[Adair M]

It looks like there are two branches originating from that lower left branch. A smaller one that comes out toward the front of the tree. Why not cut back to that branch and use it as the new first branch?

Not a terrible idea, but it is coming too much directly towards the front, and it's not big enough. On Formal Upright trees, it's important to have the thickest branches be at the bottom.

Maybe someday...

 

[Adair M]

Lovely! Happy pine... The discussion of lowering that branch is nice to follow. We have to keep in mind that lowering the branch now is for making it look good in 10 years. By then the pad will fill up more, and more of the branch structure will be visible. Tadaa. At least that is the way i see it. Might be wrong.

Very true. Hopefully, it won't be 10 years! I'm thinking I might be able to show it in 3 more years.

 

[Adair M]

I'm with you Judy.

IMHO, the branches are now too flat, but its tough to bend old JBP branches much; flattening/straightening them is about the only way they can be 'lowered'. So maybe I'll give @Adair M a pass this time. Still, someone who is really good with trees would make it the way we like .

Oso,

Can you give me an illustration of how you would like this tree? And when you do that, please tell me who you have in mind that is really good with trees who would make it that way. Just so I have an idea of what you're thinking. I'm sorry, I have very limited abilities in the "reading between the lines" department.

 

[0soyoung]

Oso,

Can you give me an illustration of how you would like this tree? And when you do that, please tell me who you have in mind that is really good with trees who would make it that way. Just so I have an idea of what you're thinking. I'm sorry, I have very limited abilities in the "reading between the lines" department.

It was intended as a back-handed compliment, Adair.

I don't like straight, flat branches, but what else can anyone do with such a tree at this point, I ask rhetorically. We usually must live with what we can make and cannot always get what we want (hmmm, that has a familiar ring to it ).

 

[JudyB]

Not to make anything of my comment, but in looking again, it's the spaces between the low branches and the foliage and the branches above that draws my eye and makes me like it. They are small spaces, but they mean something.

 

[Adair M]

Ok... Like I said, I can't read between the lines! Lol!!

That tree and the bigger one are formal uprights. The bigger one, especially. The smaller one leans to the front too much. The bigger one has a very slight lean forward.

But when styling formal uprights, the branches should be straight, and horizontal. There's very little leeway to "break the rules".

Which is why there are very, very few true Formal Upright trees.

My big one is about the best I've ever seen. Which is why I bought it! I'm sure there's better ones, but it's probably the best I'll ever be able to own.

Wiring it out is quite challenging. I mean, it's a nice tree. All the bones are there. If it doesn't look good, it won't be because it's poor material! It will be because I messed it up! So, I'm taking my time. And even then I'll put on some wire and it will be ineffective, or slightly under-anchored or one section will have too large (or too small) a piece of wire on it. So, I have to take it off and do it better the next time!

After a while, you get a rhythm going, and everything starts to fall into place.

 

[drew33998]

Not a terrible idea, but it is coming too much directly towards the front, and it's not big enough. On Formal Upright trees, it's important to have the thickest branches be at the bottom.

Maybe someday...

Yea I thought about the thickness issue. Then I saw that there was another branch that you could use for the next branch up as well. But I guess that would mean trying to redo all the branches in the same manner. Better left until it's way way too big