Cut back on a JBP

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
Dear Sifu [ Adair ]

firstly, apologies for not writing to you as Sifu, in an earlier letter - very rude of me - apologies.

Secondly, thanks a million, your response made us look more deeply.
What we noted in the older Japanese books was thin branches on trees meant to be tall and stately, like Cryptomaria.

Our fat branches would illustrate low, heavy set trees, as illusion goes.

Thank you very much, and the new idea has been applied to taller, graceful, tamarinds.

So few of our trees are over 15 inches in height, we missed the thin branch illusion of great height.
One way thinking.

Always learn so much from you guys.

It's raining heavily, good for planting, but allows for little else.
Home, near the computer for hopefully only another day, more concrete casting to do.
Good Day
Anthony

* Our idea about Bonsai - visually - trees hit with a shrinking ray.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Dear Sifu [ Adair ]

firstly, apologies for not writing to you as Sifu, in an earlier letter - very rude of me - apologies.

Secondly, thanks a million, your response made us look more deeply.
What we noted in the older Japanese books was thin branches on trees meant to be tall and stately, like Cryptomaria.

Our fat branches would illustrate low, heavy set trees, as illusion goes.

Thank you very much, and the new idea has been applied to taller, graceful, tamarinds.

So few of our trees are over 15 inches in height, we missed the thin branch illusion of great height.
One way thinking.

Always learn so much from you guys.

It's raining heavily, good for planting, but allows for little else.
Home, near the computer for hopefully only another day, more concrete casting to do.
Good Day
Anthony

* Our idea about Bonsai - visually - trees hit with a shrinking ray.
Please send some rain up north. We haven't had any in three weeks. At least.
 

Djtommy

Omono
Messages
1,551
Reaction score
5,367
Location
Tokyo
Adair,

thanks for the letter, I am well.

You might have forgotten our discussion on branch to tree proportions for a J.B.pine.

Here is an image of the philosophy we use.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/20/48/a3/2048a3320115c5c980f66de5339fb945.jpg
This tree is what happens when you put your bonsai in the ground and leave it there for too long
If im not mistaken thats a tree in ritsurin park in takamatsu. Said to be a bonsai once as a gift from shogun and put in the ground in the park. Its a very nice tree.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
This tree is what happens when you put your bonsai in the ground and leave it there for too long
If im not mistaken thats a tree in ritsurin park in takamatsu. Said to be a bonsai once as a gift from shogun and put in the ground in the park. Its a very nice tree.
Yeah, Anthony, I'm afraid that's not a very good model to go by. I mean, yes, it's a lovely old tree, but it's in a park. Which means it's been tended. You see the poles required to support the branches. Is that in any way "natural"? Regardless of whether you're doing "Classical Japanese Bonsai" or Walter Pall's "Naturalistic" bonsai, that tree is neither.

From past posts, I get the impression you tend to ascribe to "Classical Bonsai"...

You often say you follow the old Japanese books. What about using the modern Japanese books? Kokofu books?

A lot of the old Japanese styles have been updated.
 

M. Frary

Bonsai Godzilla
Messages
14,307
Reaction score
22,116
Location
Mio Michigan
USDA Zone
4
Troll alert.
internet-troll1.jpg
Sure enough.
 

M. Frary

Bonsai Godzilla
Messages
14,307
Reaction score
22,116
Location
Mio Michigan
USDA Zone
4
Biggest flaw is whole tree. Hard to hide. Don't have to "aim" for cookie cutter already is. Boring cookie cutter too perfect tree. Why not leave with Boon for sale and get or grow something unique interesting and new:rolleyes:?
Are you even looking at the same tree as the rest of us?
Oh wait a minute! You've bought into the whole out west collected trees are the only way to go thing. From those 2 guys that had the artisan cup.
I don't remember the names. You know the ones. I think.
And besides all that. You're an idiot for saying this is a boring cookie cutter tree. It's anything but. You may not be able to see it but the rest of us do.
Do you even have any trees? I see a lot of posts with advice but no trees to back it up. I think Don has your number and you're just a troll.
It's now or never Potty. Time to put up or shut up. I think it's time you post pictures of the trees you have and work you've done on them. If not no one here will ever take anything you say as serious. Most of us don't already.
 
Last edited:

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
Sifu,

I think our trees are a blend of nature and design, Mr. Pall's tree work, are visually enjoyable, but are Mr.Pall's. Sort of like copying Tiziano, or Raphael.

Classical Bonsai in the sense that the image would be drawn in a painting, as in the work of Ma Yuan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Yuan_(painter)

http://www.chinaonlinemuseum.com/resources/Painting/MaYuan/moon-pine.jpg

http://www.chinaonlinemuseum.com/resources/Painting/MaYuan/three-friends.jpg

http://www.baxleystamps.com/litho/sr/fafe_8_46-1.jpg

Apologies, this is all I could find on-line, and it is not quite what we have in the books on Ink Painting, but they should help.

Though the Japanese have the most abundant examples, our technique is still Grow and Clip, drawing trees from Nature and a tendency to follow Chinese
Traditional Ink paintings as pines go.

You will probably note that as trees age the angularity, of grow and clip, changes to rounder forms, and looks more natural.

As you noted, our pines on the island are young [ less than 70 years old ] and really meant for lumber. So the Ink paintings do the guiding.

Modern Japanese work, looks too much like bushes/ shrubs, as they have mastered cultivation/use of densely branched cultivars, so much that they have
lost the use of negative/positive space.
Remember the shrinking ray bit. The proportions of the tree stay the same, not get denser and leafier.

Apart from the Basic styles [ or philosophical ideas on styles ] we draw on nature down here.

For example when we began to look for the thin branches on trees [ as you mentioned ] we noted the left over tallest trees in now gone forests, followed
what you spoke of. Tall graceful trees, with canopies high in the air. Really elegant and attractive. Something new to try.
Hope this explains.
Good Day
Anthony

@Djtommy,

thanks for the additional information, much appreciated.

One of the philosophies that we found very appealing is from Bonsai Today , the guy says that beauty of J.B,pine is really seen in a few, but thick
branches.
Very appealing, visually.
Since our trees level off at 15 to 18 inches - 38 to 36 cm
6 branches work well in the design.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Ah...

So, you are using Chinese paintings as your model! Not real trees. That's another artist's interpretation of how he thinks trees should look.

Do you see the point I'm making?

Also, if that's the style you're after, for the most part those are all literati.

And Chinese Penjing is styled quite differently than Japanese bonsai. Yes, clip and grow is used a lot for Penjing.

I don't do Penjing. I am doing Classical Japanese Bonsai.

Here's JBP I've been working on:

image.jpeg

The picture was taken just after I finished decandling a couple weeks ago. I've never counted, but I bet there's 20 branches coming off the trunk.

I'm thinking its 16 to 18 inches tall. Above the pot.

Here's an old photo with me working on it to give a size reference:

image.jpeg

Me thinks you tend to follow arbitrary rules too much. Six or eight branches, for this tree? It would look naked. Maybe for another tree. Clip and grow? For some species. Not with pines.

Seriously, if you don't want to wire, don't grow pines.

But, it also seems that your styling preferences are based upon Chinese aesthetics, not Japanese. I can't help you there.
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
Sifu, t

you missed the - Khaimraj, who actually trains the trees is an Italian Trained Fine Artist, and if anything the work of Ruisdael or Gainsborough or perhaps
the landscapes of other Dutch little masters, would actually be the starting point.
This European technique requires, actually drawing the tree.

We are both 1/2 and 1/4 Chinese, but also English and [ Indian - K ], with a touch of [ me - Amerindian, K likes to say Mayan and Italian.]

Think carefully, a J.B.pine trained with thick branches and stout trunk [ masculine ] would look silly at 15 to 18" with more than 6 branches.
3 to 4 inch trunks, with main branch being 0.75 or 3/4 of the trunk and at 0.5 or 1/2 at the second branch.

There is definitely a Chinese influence, but with 37 to 38 years of growing trees, I am not sure how obvious it would be.
The local trees have to be drawn for observation.

AND as usual Sifu, great tree!

Ah to have a teacher with experience and a similar climate to Japan.
BUT we don't and so we must experiment and research.
However, I was into research as Science goes, and K is a creator of imaginative figurative compositions, so we both love
Research and Experimentation and are not afraid to fail.
[ hee hee - next on the agenda - a Morris Minor as an electric car, now that houses are going solar ]

Hah Sifu throws down the glove - no wires, no pines - love it - a challenge
Accepted!:)

But we do use guy wires.................................;)

I leave you with this - what happens to a single tree in a meadow, with no competition for light ?
I made this point, perhaps last year, after observation and reading of books.

Great chatting with you.
Thanks for taking the time.
Your disruptive student.
Anthony


* Perhaps what we do is neither fully Bonsai or Penjing, but another evolution ???????????????
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Anthony,

Back to this tree...the topic of this thread. How many branches off the trunk are there?

A photo to help you count:

image.jpeg

I can see 14 or 15. Easily. And there are some back branches you can't see from this angle. I suspect there are about 20.

Now, is that too many?

No? Because it's a tall tree, right?

Well...

image.jpeg

It's about 14 inches tall.

Does this tree look "silly" you? This tree is 2 inches shorter with 3 times as many branches as what you were saying what would be a "silly" tree.

Look... You're a smart dude. You read a lot of books. You're well educated. But all that counts for little. You have no practical experience working with JBP! You think you "know". But you don't. In fact, you don't know what you don't know! I'm not saying this to be insulting. Please don't take it that way. But bonsai is one of those things you have to learn by doing. And each species is different. I know nothing of your tropicals. I'm totally clueless. But with JBP, I'm telling you, the comments you're making are making you look "silly"!

About trees growing in a pasture...

Yes, there's less pressure to grow tall. They tend to keep their lower limbs. In fact, that is EXACTLY what the Formal Upright tree is supposed to represent. This tree is a Formal Upright. It has low limbs. Straight trunk.

About drawing (sketching) the art, then making the final piece...

That's fine. Some of us do virtuals as a way of envisioning the future. They can be helpful. But certainly not required. You see, we're working with a dynamic piece of material. Trees grow, they change. Stuff happens. Branches die, new buds appear in unexpected places, some never bud where want them. Simply put, we don't have total control as a painter does with his canvas and brush. The tree, it's environment, and us all have input into what the tree will be. And no matter what we do, it will be different in 6 months.

I forget which artist it was, but he was styling a tree at a demonstration, and he was starting at the bottom and working his way up. Applying wire and setting branches. He was about 1/4 to 1/3 up the tree when someone in the audience asked the question, "What are you going to use for the apex? The one on the left, or the one on the right?" The artist stopped, sat back, spun the tree around on the turn table around three or four times while he peered at it and said, "I don't know. I'll decide when I get there!" And went back to work on the middle of the tree.
 

petegreg

Masterpiece
Messages
2,781
Reaction score
4,079
Location
Slovakia
USDA Zone
6a
@Anthony , maybe I'm not here long enough, but I'm really happy to see your gentleman posts again. Keep rolling, I like you, man.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
I like Anthony, too! He can be frustrating at times! Lol!!! Heart's in the right place though.
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
Hee hee Sifu,

I have absolutely nothing constructive to offer. BUT I believe we have licked our J.B.pine problem, however, will only be able to show you the
result next year, please be patient with me.

Opinion on the tree would be, the shrub/bush problem, too many branches, but it is your tree.
When you get tired of it, please post to -> Trinidad W.I.

Thanks to you two for the positives.

It has dried up again, back to casting at Mayaro.
See you later on.
Good Day
Anthony
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Well, Anthony, it's that perspective thing again.

A formal upright, growing in a field, would have nothing to cause it to lose branches. Therefore, it should have a lot of branches.

Trees in harsh environments would lose some due to damage from winds, snow, storms. A FU, not so much. So, they should look "full".

Now, lots of small branches makes the tree look big. If it's done right. It's supposed to be as if you are looking at the tree from a long distance.

If there were few branches, you lose that "fool the eye" trick, because with fewer things for your eye to see, you see more of the individual components of the tree, particularly the needles. The needles give it away.

So, by having the tree full, you don't see individual needles. You see clouds or pads of foliage. And in your minds eye, it says "big tree", when in fact it's only 14 inches.

Didn't you think my tree was taller than 14 inches?
 

LanceMac10

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,798
Reaction score
17,176
Location
Nashua, NH U.S.A.
USDA Zone
5
De-volving into a "perspective" point of view...I don't think I need to worry about that part for a little bit...but I think I already have "summer candles" on a JBP I haven't even touched "spring candles" on yet...:confused:

Is that what these are? Strange growing needles on this particular tree as well, but seems healthy overall...
DSC01242.JPG

DSC01243.JPG

DSC01244.JPG

Should I just wait until fall to cut back?:rolleyes:
 

Anthony

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
6,290
Reaction score
8,388
Location
West Indies [ Caribbean ]
USDA Zone
13
Now you see Lance,

if we even got candles of that length, it would be helpful. On our side candles are at 1/2 inch or less.
Yet, we end up with these dense of needle trees.
Must be our sunlight.

I am sure Sifu will chime in.
Best of growing.
Good Day,
Anthony

* As I told Joe, rain washed out our casting of concrete. So back home twiddling thumbs.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
If the tree is really strong, sometimes they will put on a second flush all by themselves! This second flush would be at the tip ends of where the Spring growth stopped.

No, you need to decandle all of it if you are decandling. This will put the new summer candles starting at the base of the old spring candle, rather than the tip of the spring candle.

Unless, of course, your intention is to lengthen the branch. If the internodes are ok, then leave them alone. But if the internodes are too long, decandle.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
14,402
Reaction score
34,874
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Now you see Lance,

if we even got candles of that length, it would be helpful. On our side candles are at 1/2 inch or less.
Yet, we end up with these dense of needle trees.
Must be our sunlight.

I am sure Sifu will chime in.
Best of growing.
Good Day,
Anthony

* As I told Joe, rain washed out our casting of concrete. So back home twiddling thumbs.
It's not your sunlight. It's your lack of a winter season.
 
Top Bottom