Cut paste

[PABonsai]

Is there any topic that doesn't devolve into an ego stroking pissing match? I don't care one bit whether one person prefers to use cut paste or not. I want to know what cut paste product those who use it are using. Controlled experiments don't mean much as it relates to this topic as the goals of any individual experiment are not necessarily concurrent with those of bonsai.

For example. Corn grows perfectly fine without nitrogen fertilizer applied. It grows faster with it though. Is your goal sheer yield or organic marketing? The difference matters and whether you use it depends on your goals. My question was narrow for a reason.....because arguing doesn't provide the answer

 

[0soyoung]

I want to ammend my prior response

I use the same {meaning waterproof Elmer's glue}, but just apply it to the exposed ring of cambium.

Only on non-resinous species, which for the most part, are angiosperms (aka 'deciduous' species) but also a few conifers such as cryptomeria.
I put nothing on resinous species such as pines, firs, spruces, because they 'bleed' their own cut paste (i.e., resin) from wounds.

Controlled experiments don't mean much as it relates to this topic as the goals of any individual experiment are not necessarily concurrent with those of bonsai.

Nonsense.
But maybe we need to establish what you mean by "goals of bonsai"

 

[Captain.Bonsai]

Is there any topic that doesn't devolve into an ego stroking pissing match? I don't care one bit whether one person prefers to use cut paste or not. I want to know what cut paste product those who use it are using. Controlled experiments don't mean much as it relates to this topic as the goals of any individual experiment are not necessarily concurrent with those of bonsai.

For example. Corn grows perfectly fine without nitrogen fertilizer applied. It grows faster with it though. Is your goal sheer yield or organic marketing? The difference matters and whether you use it depends on your goals. My question was narrow for a reason.....because arguing doesn't provide the answer

Healthy debate could help though.

Does this mean ‘no cut paste’ was not on the menu of options?

I suspect you’re going to get a wide range of opinions and possible debates no matter the perimeters of your inquiry.

I’ll step out. Continue your search for the perfect wound sealant.

 

[PABonsai]

Healthy debate could help though.

Does this mean ‘no cut paste’ was not on the menu of options?

I suspect you’re going to get a wide range of opinions and possible debates no matter the perimeters of your inquiry.

I’ll step out. Continue your search for the perfect wound sealant.

I made it quite clear multiple times I intend to test no cut paste vs cut paste myself so I can see the results with my own eyes. I'm just wondering what I compare "no cut paste" to.

I do appreciate vigorous discussion however On this particular topic I'm not looking for a path, i'm just looking for a vehicle to travel it.

Thank you for your contributions thus far. Don't think your opinion is falling on deaf ears mate.

 

[Uncle Robo]

I've only used twist ties and plumber's putty.
Both have helped heal wounds faster than not using anything.

 

[River's Edge]

Is there any topic that doesn't devolve into an ego stroking pissing match? I don't care one bit whether one person prefers to use cut paste or not. I want to know what cut paste product those who use it are using. Controlled experiments don't mean much as it relates to this topic as the goals of any individual experiment are not necessarily concurrent with those of bonsai.

For example. Corn grows perfectly fine without nitrogen fertilizer applied. It grows faster with it though. Is your goal sheer yield or organic marketing? The difference matters and whether you use it depends on your goals. My question was narrow for a reason.....because arguing doesn't provide the answer

Just to answer your main question. Here are the four products that I find most useful. Two are cut paste, two are liquid sealant. Both cut paste are effective, i prefer the square package. The product is more consistent texture and malleable in my experience. The two liquid sealants are for different purposes. The green bottle I use for sealing smaller cuts on roots, cuttings, small pruning general purpose. I used to use it on Maples but it causes excessively thick callus tissue and poor aesthetic results. I use the tube product for deciduous cuts, apply thin coating. It contains a fungicide and is orange in color.
These products are available on the Kaneshin website. I have also found them at various vendors attending major shows. They are also available on several North American Bonsai supply websites.
I have tried several economical alternatives such as plumbers putty, white glue, Vaseline and children's plastercine. The products below are my favourites.

 

[0soyoung]

I made it quite clear multiple times I intend to test no cut paste vs cut paste myself so I can see the results with my own eyes. I'm just wondering what I compare "no cut paste" to.

The hard part is what is the response you are going to measure and how many instances do you need to resolve the effect, if it exists?

 

[PABonsai]

Nonsense.
But maybe we need to establish what you mean by "goals of bonsai"

I don't believe it is nonsense. My comparison to the goals of corn growing was pretty clear. My point is that while a study may have the goal of comparing the outcomes between two groups the outcome they are looking at may not be in line with those of bonsai. If you would like me to provide a more relevant example I can go back to trees. If a study is conducted to see which of a group of fertilizers leads to the fastest branch growth, that would be an example of a study whose outcomes are not necessarily in line with the goals of bonsai, as bonsai has the goal is minimizing legginess.....but I am not here to discuss the merits of any particular studies or their goals though. If you disagree then sorry but at present I do not care. It was simply a poignant way to state my message. I can't understand why everything has to run off into tangents and why folks here cannot stay within the confines of a discussion. Listening skills are important in the world. And it doesn't speak very well of listening skills if a narrow, pointed question gets answered by running rants and arguments. I did not start a thread with "hey folks what are your opinions on cut paste?"

 

[PABonsai]

Nonsense.
But maybe we need to establish what you mean by "goals of bonsai"

I do not believe this is nonsense at all. After all the goals of, say a silviculturalist caring for forests might be maximum growth, whereas for bonsai it is not. Thus, you may have a study to push growth to the limits and so this would be an example of a study whose goals are not in line with the goals of bonsai. I left a pretty big caveat in "not necessarily". But the larger point is that to me, right now, it is irrelevant because, and this is important, I did not ask whether to use them or not. Listening skills are very important and this forum seems to very often take very specific, defined questions and return rants and arguments that show a stunning lack of listening skills.

 

[KillerButts]

I don't disagree at all. I tend to actually agree that the natural method is the best, otherwise it wouldn't be the natural mechanism. To me it's like anything else in nature, I don't believe we can do it "better".

However I find it interesting that the greatest practitioners of the art form have been using it for a very long time and getting very good results. Sometimes we don't do the process better than nature but we can do something nature can't.

But that's neither here nor there. I want to find out for myself what's best. I just want to know what products they use as I don't know the difference between a Japanese branded tube of traditional cut paste and silly putty

I have been using Bondo wood filler 1 part and pine sap 2 parts for conifers. Two parts maple sap on deciduous trees. Goes on yucky, smooths out easy and blends well.

 

[PABonsai]

The hard part is what is the response you are going to measure and how many instances do you need to resolve the effect, if it exists?

Well, my thoughts are to prune similar branch structures and compare how they heal. For example, I would like to see how quickly, and how ugly it might become. I'm quite frankly not too keen on trying 10 different products and doing full on experimentation as it would take years. I just want to get a feel for, in short, does cut paste help or not. Or does it partially help and I can improve the way I use it. I think it would be easy, for example to take similar sized branches off a trunk and see how they respond. I could just have some throw away test tree (cruel I know!).

 

[PABonsai]

I have been using Bondo wood filler 1 part and pine sap 2 parts for conifers. Two parts maple sap on deciduous trees. Goes on yucky, smooths out easy and blends well.

If you don't mind me asking, how do you obtain sap? Can you buy it or do you have to harvest it yourself? You need pretty sizeable trees for sap harvesting I would assume.

 

[Potawatomi13]

Picture #1 presently. It is essentially clay. Use for 3 reasons: To stop pitch from dripping on tree, etc after cuts on conifers, to keep pitch off of hands/fingers and for protection of stem breaks when wiring/bending to prevent drying. Works well if applied properly. Did not used to use before 1-2 years ago.

 

[0soyoung]

Well, my thoughts are to prune similar branch structures and compare how they heal. For example, I would like to see how quickly, and how ugly it might become. I'm quite frankly not too keen on trying 10 different products and doing full on experimentation as it would take years. I just want to get a feel for, in short, does cut paste help or not. Or does it partially help and I can improve the way I use it. I think it would be easy, for example to take similar sized branches off a trunk and see how they respond. I could just have some throw away test tree (cruel I know!).

First, I would just pick something. Compare it versus nothing. Your question isn't really about comparing cut pastes but just whether any of them does anything versus nothing.
It is my contention that if cut paste makes a (suberized) wound heal faster, then it should make a trunk thicken faster. I've never seen any claims that cut paste does any such thing nor did cut paste or damp sphagnum seem to cause any trunk thickening when I tried it (I did get roots on a Seiju, though). On the other hand, I do know how to chemically induce more rapid thickening of a trunk and it doesn't seem to make wound close more quickly. In brief, I don't think it matters what you use as long as it is a non-toxic moisture barrier.

Second, neither one tree nor one wound is really going to answer the question - you likely need several. Maybe the (im)plausibility of an hypothesis is established with a single instance.

Third, 'healing' is complicated by phloem flow (nutrients to feed the 'healing' growth) and the cambium line, which is to say the branching and foliage load above. It doesn't necessarily follow that the sap flow around the wound is equal on both sides. So maybe one needs to put cut paste on a wound as a slash, meaning cover upper right and lower left in one case and opposite in another. I reported my results of a such a test in "Regarding Wound Healing". I think this point simplifies the measurement of the response to the treatment.

I hope you find this bs helpful to figure out what you want to do. I offer it only in the interest that you don't go down the exact same rabbit hole(s) - some fresh ideas tested and the results would be interesting/helpful. Despite what I've said, the burning question you seem to have is which one is best as opposed to do any of them do anything.

 

[PABonsai]

In all honesty Oso, I wasn't even intending to get into all these alternatives to cut paste. I really just wanted to know what product of cut paste folks use. Because all the books direct you to use it as basically a given, but none provide a product name.

 

[Dav4]

I mainly use the cut paste/ duct seal... if you make cuts on deciduous trees, it’s a must for accelerating callus formation and wound closure. Try it... you’ll like it.

 

[Driftwood]

Just to answer your main question. Here are the four products that I find most useful. Two are cut paste, two are liquid sealant. Both cut paste are effective, i prefer the square package. The product is more consistent texture and malleable in my experience. The two liquid sealants are for different purposes. The green bottle I use for sealing smaller cuts on roots, cuttings, small pruning general purpose. I used to use it on Maples but it causes excessively thick callus tissue and poor aesthetic results. I use the tube product for deciduous cuts, apply thin coating. It contains a fungicide and is orange in color.
These products are available on the Kaneshin website. I have also found them at various vendors attending major shows. They are also available on several North American Bonsai supply websites.
I have tried several economical alternatives such as plumbers putty, white glue, Vaseline and children's plastercine. The products below are my favourites.View attachment 260735

Hi, could you please make some more comments about Kirikuchi-Naoru (green bottle cut sealer)? Did you apply a very thin layer? Have you tried on a big wound? Will it work better in a deep wound? Is it too much trouble to post a picture of some result? Sorry but I can't find much information about this product apart of the usual ''can cause thick callus formation ".

 

[Sekibonsai]

duct seal from Home Depot.

 

[River's Edge]

Hi, could you please make some more comments about Kirikuchi-Naoru (green bottle cut sealer)? Did you apply a very thin layer? Have you tried on a big wound? Will it work better in a deep wound? Is it too much trouble to post a picture of some result? Sorry but I can't find much information about this product apart of the usual ''can cause thick callus formation ".

I have been using the product since 2010. I use it primarily on deciduous trees. I mainly use traditional cut paste on conifers. ( foil covers the cut paste or sealer on larger scars)
The Kirikuchi-Naoru liquid cut sealer is applied to cover the entire wound area ( particularly the cut edge) and then I wipe most off leaving a thin layer. The liquid sealers are designed for the callus to roll over the sealer, that is why a thin layer is important! With traditional cut paste the callus forms underneath the paste. I have not bothered to document the process with pictures. And I agree that many other products are used successfully.
I think it is important to note that the care taken in carving the wound is perhaps more important than the type of sealer or cut paste used. One can get good results with numerous products and techniques. One of the best explanations I have seen is contained in Andrea Meriggioli's book " Bonsai Maples". In particular he mentions the value of progressive healing of scars and additional stages or techniques to improve the results. Too often one thinks it is a one step fix. Excellent results can involve a staged approach both in preparing removal and executing sealing and callus formation. The extra knowledge of understanding proper removal and techniques for improving the healing process in stages add a lot to the end result.

 

[Underdog]

Wood glue applied with a small paint brush here. If I use nothing on azlalea, die back and bark cracking and peeling away an inch below the cut occurs every time.
I've used this on Grimmys advice for 5 yrs and only used 1/4 of the 4 dollar bottle. I think like everything else in bonsai, it depends... The species, stage of development ect...
I do want to try some other options for the learning experience as my trees progress to where it really matters