Cutting characteristics question

Ohmy222

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I have a weird question about cuttings. Cutting take on the characteristics of the mother plant I know. With Azaleas, propagators will take cuttings on certain branches that have the flowers they want and with maples, propagators will take cuttings of witches brooms and mutations on a certain part of a tree. My question is does a cutting take all the characteristics of the mother plant, the branch, or just the general location from which the cutting comes? For instance if I have a trident with nice small leaves and tight internodes but has a long leggy sacrifice branch with wide internodes and large leaves, will the cutting from the sacrifice have the mother tree traits or those of the sacrifice branch only? Same question would apply to vigor of the growth? Would the sacrifice cutting grow at a more aggressive rate?
 

Deep Sea Diver

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Good question. This is more of a case by case scenario. However, to have a specific trait carried on into a cutting it has to be a genetically controlled trait.

Your example of long internodes and large leaves on a sacrifice branch of a tree mostly would be horticulturally controlled. In other words, pruning and other environmental manipulations could shorten the the internodes and make the leaves reduce similar to the parent tree. A cutting of this branch, grown out and created into a bonsai would have similar characteristics as the parent tree.... in this case.

Maple Witches brooms and satsuki azalea flower type and variable color are the result of genetically expressed traits. Properly selected cuttings would yield identical clones as the parent’s source material.

It’s not all that simple, there are exceptions, but that’s as simple as I can answer this.

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Shibui

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Depends whether the characteristics are genetic or environmental
The azaleas and witches brooms are genetic changes to that part of the plants and only to that part. Cuttings taken from the affected section will still carry those genes so the cuttings will be similar. Cuttings from the normal part of the plant will have normal genes and will look and grow normal.
In your trident the small leaves are environmental effects - lots of ramification, reduced nutrients or water, etc. Both parts of the plant still have the same genetics so cuttings from either section will have exactly the same potential to grow either long and leggy if you fed and water well and allow free growth or small leaf and tight if you prune and maintain it appropriately.
 

leatherback

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As plants grow, cells replicate themselves. With that, they also replicate the guidebook for how to behave, the DNA. This is near-perfect. (un)fortunately, in the copying sometimes mistakes slip in. In many cases, this is not a problem and nothing happens. However, sometimes small mistakes cause big changes: The one branch that has yellow streaks in the foliage, witches brooms, ultra-short internodes. These mutations are the mechanism behind all the variation you see around you.

From that cell onwards, whenever it gets replicated, the trait is passed onto the next cell. So if this is a cell in the growing tip, the whole branch might have that trait and can be replicated by cuttings / grafting. If such a mutation takes place in a young seed, you get a plant with traits that differ from both the parent plants.

MOST variation in plants however are not only the genes, but also how they express themselves. Some traits are known to be variable by and from itself.

Take the Azalea example you mentioned. The flower color in Azalea is a very complex mechanism, which I do not know well except that with aging color shifts in certain groups of azaleas and flower color and pattern can switch between multiple versions. It is genetically embedded in Azalea to throw sports of a different color and/or pattern, yet considering the predictability I am not commilted to calling this a mutation.

Then if we go one step deeper, we see that plants adjust the whole growing habit to different climatic circumstances. From short internodes when growing in hot, dry and nutrient poor conditions, rankk tall weak stems under dark conditions allt he way to plants that have crawling stems in swampy marshes yet grow upright under drier conditions: That is a response to the environment, and pre-rogrammed. If you take a cutting, and change the conditions, the growing habit will change.
 

sorce

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long leggy sacrifice branch with wide internodes

Regardless, this isn't the best material to start with, so I wouldn't bother taking cuttings from it.

For me, the value in Pre-Bonsai is options.

Taking cutting with nodes stacked on each other now gives many options in the future.

We see these tridents every now and then that have died back from a chop and have a dead side, they were either long leggy seedlings or cuttings.

Sorce
 

Forsoothe!

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As the OP described it, the leggy branches have exactly the same genes as the compact parts. It doesn't matter where the cutting comes from on that tree, they will all be identical to Mom, as stated above by @Deep Sea Diver and @Shibui Cuttings are only rarely, if ever, different from Mom. A witch's broom is technically a different tree which happens to be growing on a tree as a parasite and may disappear if not separated. They are almost never removed as one unit, they are butchered into cuttings a few at a time and the cuttings rooted or grafted.
 

Ohmy222

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Thanks for all the replies. Everything shared is roughly what I thought. I think the azalea flower selections is what got me wondering because I would think they flowers or, at least possible flower combinations, would be part of the genetics and thus would make no difference which branch a cutting came from. I know varieties like a Kinsai have reversions too where if their strap-like flowers because a standard flower the whole plant can revert and propagators would never take cuttings of the reversions.

I am a big Japanese maple collector and really that is what I was thinking about as I normally just strike cuttings arbitrarily when pruning and was curious if I took a branch with smaller (or larger) leaves it may translate even though I didn't think it would matter. You also do see guidance to only take cuttings from healthy trees which could be a fine line between genetics vs environment. I also have a few american beech cuttings I took last year from a tree in the wild with very small leaves and am very curious if they will have them this year or if they were small from environmental factors and they will open up with normal large leaves in a healthier environment.
 

Pitoon

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Depends whether the characteristics are genetic or environmental
The azaleas and witches brooms are genetic changes to that part of the plants and only to that part. Cuttings taken from the affected section will still carry those genes so the cuttings will be similar. Cuttings from the normal part of the plant will have normal genes and will look and grow normal.
In your trident the small leaves are environmental effects - lots of ramification, reduced nutrients or water, etc. Both parts of the plant still have the same genetics so cuttings from either section will have exactly the same potential to grow either long and leggy if you fed and water well and allow free growth or small leaf and tight if you prune and maintain it appropriately.

I was about to write something up until I read the post above........that pretty much sums it up.


I have a weird question about cuttings. Cutting take on the characteristics of the mother plant I know. With Azaleas, propagators will take cuttings on certain branches that have the flowers they want and with maples, propagators will take cuttings of witches brooms and mutations on a certain part of a tree. My question is does a cutting take all the characteristics of the mother plant, the branch, or just the general location from which the cutting comes? For instance if I have a trident with nice small leaves and tight internodes but has a long leggy sacrifice branch with wide internodes and large leaves, will the cutting from the sacrifice have the mother tree traits or those of the sacrifice branch only? Same question would apply to vigor of the growth? Would the sacrifice cutting grow at a more aggressive rate?

I would like to add that in the case of Japanese maples not all cultivars will root via cuttings. Some will root by air layering, some won't at all. In this case we have to refer to grafting a scion onto a rootstock to keep the genetics going.
 

Deep Sea Diver

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The azalea situation is far more complicated than I laid out.

That’s because not all azaleas have a propensity to spontaneously mutate, or even mutate frequently. Most Satsuki azaleas do, an attribute which makes them especially valuable to collectors. The selection of which satsuki branch with which multicolor/patterned flower or flower shape to select to use to obtain true to type cuttings or a new cultivar is a technique that requires experience, observation and patience.

The best complete English language explanation I’ve seen on how to do this is by Jim Trumbly here.

Also pruning to keep multicolored/patterned or flower shape on satsuki true to type is also more involved than “usual” pruning.

As far as obtaining cuttings from trees in the wild, anything goes. You have to wait and see. It is a method used over many generations to obtain unusual and higher quality plant material. So good luck on this. Keep good really records and someday, with luck, we may all be buying and turning trees into bonsai with your name on them as the cultivar!

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Ohmy222

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I would like to add that in the case of Japanese maples not all cultivars will root via cuttings. Some will root by air layering, some won't at all. In this case we have to refer to grafting a scion onto a rootstock to keep the genetics going.

Yes, I have read this but at the moment I have about 70 cultivars and I have struck at least one cutting on probably 45-50 of them. Many of the others I haven't tried yet or did not try many. I also only try to root 5-10 at a time when pruning or something and am not a professional at all so my effort is not great but I don't find them difficult to root as a whole. I do have a couple of varieties that do seem difficult and I don't mess with dissectums much. I have found dwarfs are the easiest by far which seems counterintuitive and the larger the leaf it seems the lower the success rate. It could be transpiration but I don't think so because it is the same with air layers. Reds seem to be lower success too, even the dwarfs. The big question I don't have much data on is how well they grow on their own roots long term. Right now I can't really tell much difference but I imagine over time things flush themselves out.
 

Pitoon

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@Ohmy222 I would be interested in seeing a list of your 70 cultivars, maybe we could trade?
 
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