Cutting the buds of pines

Ayxowpat

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From a recent visit to a local nursery where I can find old bonsais imported and being sold, I noticed that some of the pines were 'pinched', their buds at the tips of the new shoots were removed. I am trying my best to learn bonsai as good as I can, I read, watch, ask and listen but in nowhere I have seen any technique such this. Why would anyone cut off the buds (small pointy things at the tip of the branches) in August (in Eastern Europe)?
 

Potawatomi13

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Please add location to profile:). What kind of pines please?
 

sorce

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Proper Nexts.

Reducing to two.

Sorce
 

sorce

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Not reducing sir, all of the buds were removed. No buds at all. Is that OK by any means?

Eee!

Sounds more like a deer than good bonsai techniques!

Now is not a good time for that look.

You sure it's JBP?

Sorce
 

Ayxowpat

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I am sure that they are JBPs. The problem is that the people over there do not know bonsai art and techniques, they are hiring a person who alleges that he knows bonsai techniques very well which does not seem quite right. As of my understanding, there is no explanation of removing the buds from the tip of the branch in August. Actually I have never heard of any technique that requires removing the bud. I am not talking about removing the candles or triggering the tree by removing spectacular inactive (not growing) buds at the tips in growing season.
 

Ayxowpat

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The guy was insistingly telling that he did this to pull the new buds to interior which makes no sense to me. As in my knowledge, if there is no bud at the tip of a pine branch, the branch is likely to draw energy within some years just for to survive and will not produce any shoots, and dry after 3-4 years.
 

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Brian Van Fleet

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He is confusing a few techniques and the timing is wrong for sure. This tree is very weak, likely due to these pruning practices.

If he is trying to get interior buds, he should let the tree grow strong all year, and prune it hard in the early fall or early spring. Then he may get some interior buds to grow.

From what your photo shows, he would be well-advised to leave it alone for a year or two.

Summer candle-cutting process is demonstrated in red below.

I’d assume his best chance for back-buds are in the blue circled areas, from what he has done. If the tree was strong, he could cut it hard and likely get some adventitious buds much farther inside.
F7F1132A-A9FD-4FE2-A1F5-FD207E92E4FC.jpeg
 

TomB

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The guy was insistingly telling that he did this to pull the new buds to interior which makes no sense to me. As in my knowledge, if there is no bud at the tip of a pine branch, the branch is likely to draw energy within some years just for to survive and will not produce any shoots, and dry after 3-4 years.
What you are talking about is appropriate technique for Scots pines, Pinus sylvestris. To generate back buds, you let the shoots grow freely all year then in August cut back new growth to a few pairs of needles.

All the buds would be removed in that process.

He may be trying to use this technique on JBP.
 

Ayxowpat

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What you are talking about is appropriate technique for Scots pines, Pinus sylvestris. To generate back buds, you let the shoots grow freely all year then in August cut back new growth to a few pairs of needles.

All the buds would be removed in that process.

He may be trying to use this technique on JBP.
Would it work on JBP?
 

Ayxowpat

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According to my knowledge, for JBPs, you let the candles grow and needles harden off and cut them back to reduce the internode length, or make decandling (mekiri) and benefit the second flush of growth. I have never seen any technique that requires the buds to be removed on JBP. Additionally I also remember that Ryan Neil mentions while telling shoot selection in fall for JBPs, prune the branches with no tip (bud).

This guy removed the bud and he expects the tree to create new buds in Fall for following spring, which sounds risky to me.

Am I right?
 

Adair M

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Isn’t it amazing how people can get so confused about something as simple as summer decandling!

I once attended a class on Japanese Black Pine conduced by Warren Hill. It was held in mid-to-late October. He taught to have everyone decandle their JBP then, in mid-October! He said it was the “normal time” to do it! I couldn’t believe what I was hearing! (I actually took the class because I had been told that Warren was teaching that. I didn’t believe it. So, I took the class. And, it was true! He WAS teaching to decandle in October!)

There is a RARELY USED technique to force backbudding on JBP by decandling in the fall. It is a “last, desperate, if this doesn’t work throw the tree away” type of technique! And that is to decandle in the fall like Warren described. The tree won’t have time to produce new shoots before winter. If you’re lucky, it may produce backbuds at the old internodes. And they may, or may not start growing next spring. If they do, it worked. BUT, you can’t decandle them that year. You have to wait a whole another year before you can decandle. Oh, and if you do the fall decandling, don’t pull any needles. The tree needs every thing it’s got to keep living.

I’ve never had to try the fall decandling, but I saw the effects on the trees in that workshop. It nearly killed those trees. One person nearly lost a very nice tree, it took 3 years for her tree to recover!

Don’t do it!

Oh... soon after that workshop, Warren suffered his devastating stroke. :( In speaking with some of his long time friends, they had noticed that over the previous few years, his memory had been faltering. I suspect he had suffered some minor strokes that caused his memories to get scrambled, much as my mother’s did after her mini-strokes.
 

Ayxowpat

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Yes sir. I am pretty much aware of the timing for the decandling. However, as you said, it is so hard to tell people what is right and what is wrong. If they are stubborn to learn and change, it becomes impossible. When I told him that the timing of this procedure is not right and also the technique was not applied properly, he reacted angrily and told me that I am not aware of what is that technique. The tree is in poor health, no backbudding and very reluctant to flush new growth. What will be the consequences of these procedure? Are those branches going to die in years, or try to create buds by using those needles?
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Yes sir. I am pretty much aware of the timing for the decandling. However, as you said, it is so hard to tell people what is right and what is wrong. If they are stubborn to learn and change, it becomes impossible. When I told him that the timing of this procedure is not right and also the technique was not applied properly, he reacted angrily and told me that I am not aware of what is that technique. The tree is in poor health, no backbudding and very reluctant to flush new growth. What will be the consequences of these procedure? Are those branches going to die in years, or try to create buds by using those needles?
The consequences of pruning the way your guy showed you are just like you stated, it will be in poor health, no (little) backbudding, reluctant to grow, and it will try to create buds, but will eventually weaken and die. Don’t do it that way, be careful about the techniques you learn from this guy, because they are wrong. We have lots of posts here by competent members about proper candle-cutting timing and technique.
 

garywood

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The consequences of pruning the way your guy showed you are just like you stated, it will be in poor health, no (little) backbudding, reluctant to grow, and it will try to create buds, but will eventually weaken and die. Don’t do it that way, be careful about the techniques you learn from this guy, because they are wrong. We have lots of posts here by competent members about proper candle-cutting timing and technique.

I'd like to second BVF on cutting buds. They are the very engine that drives growth! Not just the tip. Not just the root but every meristematic cell in a tree depends on high auxin levels.
 
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@1:05~2:50
Does this halving method work on all candles? Still a chance for back bud, 50/50 kind of thing?
 

Adair M

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@1:05~2:50
Does this halving method work on all candles? Still a chance for back bud, 50/50 kind of thing?
This video was painful to watch. I don’t treat any of my pines as harshly as Mr. Chan does. I suppose if I had thousands of trees like he does, I’d just hack away, too!

What he does is ok for creating rough stock, I suppose. But the work I do is done with far more precision, and eye for timing. Mind you I’m only working on a couple dozen trees, and he works on thousands.

What he is doing is the equivalent of running a “puppy mill” of bonsai.
 
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