Cutting the buds of pines

just.wing.it

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This video was painful to watch. I don’t treat any of my pines as harshly as Mr. Chan does. I suppose if I had thousands of trees like he does, I’d just hack away, too!

What he does is ok for creating rough stock, I suppose. But the work I do is done with far more precision, and eye for timing. Mind you I’m only working on a couple dozen trees, and he works on thousands.

What he is doing is the equivalent of running a “puppy mill” of bonsai.
Puppy Mill Bonsai! Hahahaha!
 

sorce

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Dead ass tree!

You should show him some good trees built from good technique.

Sorce
 

vancehanna

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I don’t mean to cause concern here but back about 18 yrs ago when I would visit San Gabriel Nursery (LA) to look at their bonsai all the JBPs had their terminal buds all pinched out about this time of year. I took the same idea home to (then lived in MI) and followed this practice for years constantly developing back budding (with accompaniment needle stripping) to no harm. What works for one may or my not work for all.... just saying...
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I don’t mean to cause concern here but back about 18 yrs ago when I would visit San Gabriel Nursery (LA) to look at their bonsai all the JBPs had their terminal buds all pinched out about this time of year. I took the same idea home to (then lived in MI) and followed this practice for years constantly developing back budding (with accompaniment needle stripping) to no harm. What works for one may or my not work for all.... just saying...
I’d be curious to see how the trees you performed this on have fared over the years. Clearly, the OP tree isn’t doing well.
There are lots of outdated, misunderstood, and simply bad horticulture techniques running around out there, even in LA.
 

Adair M

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I’d be curious to see how the trees you performed this on have fared over the years. Clearly, the OP tree isn’t doing well.
There are lots of outdated, misunderstood, and simply bad horticulture techniques running around out there, even in LA.
I agree. If this technique produces superior pines, by now this technique would be mainstream, and well known rather than some obscure approach.

I, too, would like to see JBP produced using this technique.
 

vancehanna

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Here’s a few shot today. They are left wild this full year with wires removed. detail short needles show from last year and current long.00A64870-E9DE-4FC7-851E-EED97EC441CF.jpeg7EADCA7D-893E-4B8C-850C-132E59DC50FB.jpegCA4411EE-F801-4ADD-8413-8B2E5DC272EA.jpeg
 

Adair M

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Here’s a few shot today. They are left wild this full year with wires removed. detail short needles show from last year and current long.View attachment 261698View attachment 261699View attachment 261700
Vance, based upon your tree, I would have to say that the results of using that technique are not impressive.

Compare the density of the pads, the length of needles, the length of the internodes in my JBP. This is my avatar tree:

A0F7E328-66A3-473E-B256-60EF8B7FF1BD.jpeg

The needles are 3/4 inch long, at most. None have been cut. Vance Wood saw this tree at the National Show in 2016, and he can attest to the fullness, density, and needle length.

The method I used to produce this, and all my other JBP, are by decandling in summer, pulling old needles and thinning summer shoots to two in the fall. Wiring in fall.

Simple.

I really don’t understand why people continue to shoot themselves in the foot when it’s really so easy! (Heck, if I can do it, it’s gotta be easy!)
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Vance, based upon your tree, I would have to say that the results of using that technique are not impressive.
Simple.
Agreed, it looks weak from those photos, Vance. It also appears you have not removed buds, which is probably for the best.
Here is one of my JBP taken over the weekend. I will pull needles in the fall to balance it out, but won’t be removing any buds.
7662A498-02C9-483D-9958-3F3E10165989.jpeg
 

coh

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I really don’t understand why people continue to shoot themselves in the foot when it’s really so easy! (Heck, if I can do it, it’s gotta be easy!)

There you go again, stagnating instead of innovating ;)
 

Vance Wood

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This video was painful to watch. I don’t treat any of my pines as harshly as Mr. Chan does. I suppose if I had thousands of trees like he does, I’d just hack away, too!

What he does is ok for creating rough stock, I suppose. But the work I do is done with far more precision, and eye for timing. Mind you I’m only working on a couple dozen trees, and he works on thousands.

What he is doing is the equivalent of running a “puppy mill” of bonsai.
I believe that it was Master Kimura that made the observation that Americans are too timid to make good bonsai.
We have described this technique around here for years and still people question it. You can cut the extended candles (shoots) off in early July for JBP, JRP, to get a second flush of growth but this will not yield a second flush of single flush pines like Mugo or Scotts Pine. Removing the shoots on a single flush Pine at the same time will produce an abundance of new buds along bare wood, and along branches that will produce new shorter shoots with shorter needles in the following year. This technique can be followed for three years and then on the fourth year you have to let the tree rest.
 
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I believe that it was Master Kimura that made the observation that Americans are too timid to make good bonsai.
We have described this technique around here for years and still people question it. You can cut the extended candles (shoots) off in early July for JBP, JRP, to get a second flush of growth but this will not yield a second flush of single flush pines like Mugo or Scotts Pine. Removing the shoots on a single flush Pine at the same time will produce an abundance of new buds along bare wood, and along branches that will produce new shorter shoots with shorter needles in the following year. This technique can be followed for three years and then on the fourth year you have to let the tree rest.
Lost me at the first sentence. I must be too timid to read on.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I believe that it was Master Kimura that made the observation that Americans are too timid to make good bonsai.
We have described this technique around here for years and still people question it. You can cut the extended candles (shoots) off in early July for JBP, JRP, to get a second flush of growth but this will not yield a second flush of single flush pines like Mugo or Scotts Pine. Removing the shoots on a single flush Pine at the same time will produce an abundance of new buds along bare wood, and along branches that will produce new shorter shoots with shorter needles in the following year. This technique can be followed for three years and then on the fourth year you have to let the tree rest.
You may not be following the OP, who questioned the removal of the JBP BUDS in the fall. This was not a question of summer candle-cutting, or the difference in responses of single- or double-flush pines.
 

vancehanna

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Very impressive tree! I assume you have grown it from a seedling.

Although the JNP I have shown is not refined it is healthy and has a plethora of back buds as well as terminal growth and general branch placement.

Again, as you probably have a continual refinement process in tow, the tree I've shown is only in it's 42nd year from seed. Further I never profess to have the knowledge or experience of a master let alone a master of JBP....

I will begin to refine the branches and needle reduction in time.
 

Adair M

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Very impressive tree! I assume you have grown it from a seedling.

Although the JNP I have shown is not refined it is healthy and has a plethora of back buds as well as terminal growth and general branch placement.

Again, as you probably have a continual refinement process in tow, the tree I've shown is only in it's 42nd year from seed. Further I never profess to have the knowledge or experience of a master let alone a master of JBP....

I will begin to refine the branches and needle reduction in time.
Unfortunately, for a tree that’s 42 years old, it’s not very impressive. The goal by that time should be refinement. Not “healthy, and has a plethora of back buds as well as terminal growth and general branch placement”. EVERY tree should have that.

My tree has BETTER back buds, BETTER terminal growth, BETTER health, AND it has a high degree of refinement. Because the simple procedure of summer decandling combined with needle pulling, shoot selection and wiring in the fall is a superior protocol for JBP than removing buds in the fall!
 

Vance Wood

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Lost me at the first sentence. I must be too timid to read on.
Wow, the first sentence was pretty clear, why don't you understand that? Your response seems to reflect a bit of animus toward me leaving me to ask what did I do to you? I don't remember posting anything in your direction?
 

Paulpash

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Isn’t it amazing how people can get so confused about something as simple as summer decandling!

I once attended a class on Japanese Black Pine conduced by Warren Hill. It was held in mid-to-late October. He taught to have everyone decandle their JBP then, in mid-October! He said it was the “normal time” to do it! I couldn’t believe what I was hearing! (I actually took the class because I had been told that Warren was teaching that. I didn’t believe it. So, I took the class. And, it was true! He WAS teaching to decandle in October!)

There is a RARELY USED technique to force backbudding on JBP by decandling in the fall. It is a “last, desperate, if this doesn’t work throw the tree away” type of technique! And that is to decandle in the fall like Warren described. The tree won’t have time to produce new shoots before winter. If you’re lucky, it may produce backbuds at the old internodes. And they may, or may not start growing next spring. If they do, it worked. BUT, you can’t decandle them that year. You have to wait a whole another year before you can decandle. Oh, and if you do the fall decandling, don’t pull any needles. The tree needs every thing it’s got to keep living.

I’ve never had to try the fall decandling, but I saw the effects on the trees in that workshop. It nearly killed those trees. One person nearly lost a very nice tree, it took 3 years for her tree to recover!

Don’t do it!

Oh... soon after that workshop, Warren suffered his devastating stroke. :( In speaking with some of his long time friends, they had noticed that over the previous few years, his memory had been faltering. I suspect he had suffered some minor strokes that caused his memories to get scrambled, much as my mother’s did after her mini-strokes.
It is a great shame about Warren but I'm interested in how you reacted to the "lesson" at the time, @Adair M? Did you have a quiet word with him outside,for example? I have tutored several student teachers and if they start to teach the 'wrong' thing I've had no choice but to step in.
 

Adair M

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It is a great shame about Warren but I'm interested in how you reacted to the "lesson" at the time, @Adair M? Did you have a quiet word with him outside,for example? I have tutored several student teachers and if they start to teach the 'wrong' thing I've had no choice but to step in.
Er, no. I did mention that the proper was in summer and he “corrected” me saying that fall was the time to do it, in order to induce back budding in the future!

That day was an all day class. The morning session was about decandling, and the afternoon was a “wiring class”. Here’s how the wiring class went: the first thing he says is: “The Best trees aren’t wired!”. He then goes on to demonstrate his “no wiring” technique: He grabbed a piece of my 8 gauge copper wire, and cut off about a 6 inch piece. Straighten it out. He then cut each end into a sharp point. Then, he went to a tree, grabbed a branch, bent the branch down, jabbed one end of the wire into the top of the branch, and the other end into the trunk above the branch, thus propping the branch down a little. He was very proud of this, called it “The Hill Prop”. And THAT was the wiring class!
 
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