Dealing with hard water.

Scrogdor

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My tap water is drinkable where I'm at. The water quality report says the 2021 ppm was/is between 170-270 which I've heard by some is just fine, and by others is too high. I still do get a bit of lime scale build up around the bottom of pots and trunks of trees though. After a super dry year here in California I've noticed a couple of my trees becoming chlorotic from using so much tap water. Putting in a RO system isn't really an option. The trees that seem to dislike it the most are my hornbeams and a black gum that I have. My acers and elms all seem fine.

Does anyone have any experience with using hard water regularly? Some things I'm considering:

1) Buying spring water or anything with low ppm and using that for one week out of every month to try and flush some of the build up out.
2) I've heard that a little vinegar once a month can help during dry spells with no rain water.
3) Any recommendations for surface mulch that can help maintain acidity of the soil and prevent the top lair from drying out allowing minerals to harden?
4) Any recommendations for ferts that might help with this issue?
5) Any unconventional soils that I can use to help as well?

Thanks in advance.
 

Tums

Shohin
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2) I've done alright before using vinegar at every watering. Since bonsai are frequently watered and vinegar is a weak acid without persistent effect, I doubt using it every once in a while will solve your problem. I used the little lab paper pH strips to figure out roughly how much vinegar it would take to get the water somewhere around my target and just added that amount every time. This was when I was living in Cambridge, MA which has terrible water for plants.
4) You want to look for fertilizers with urea or ammonium as the nitrogen source, as opposed to nitrate. https://greenupside.com/which-fertilizers-are-acidic-3-things-to-know/
3, 5) Over time regardless of the original soil components or top dressing (peat, bark, kanuma), the pH in the container will approach your irrigation water pH.

Some links from Michael Hagedorn:

He suggest muriatic (hydrochloric) acid, but if you're going to go stronger than vinegar, I think sulfuric acid is least likely to throw off the nutrient balance in your soil.
 

Scrogdor

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2) I've done alright before using vinegar at every watering. Since bonsai are frequently watered and vinegar is a weak acid without persistent effect, I doubt using it every once in a while will solve your problem. I used the little lab paper pH strips to figure out roughly how much vinegar it would take to get the water somewhere around my target and just added that amount every time. This was when I was living in Cambridge, MA which has terrible water for plants.
4) You want to look for fertilizers with urea or ammonium as the nitrogen source, as opposed to nitrate. https://greenupside.com/which-fertilizers-are-acidic-3-things-to-know/
3, 5) Over time regardless of the original soil components or top dressing (peat, bark, kanuma), the pH in the container will approach your irrigation water pH.

Some links from Michael Hagedorn:

He suggest muriatic (hydrochloric) acid, but if you're going to go stronger than vinegar, I think sulfuric acid is least likely to throw off the nutrient balance in your soil.
Thanks for that reply! Just bought a water pH test kit, will check tomorrow. Does it matter what kind of vinegar I use, because I have a bunch of apple cider vinegar lying around?
 

Tums

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I didn't want to gunk up my watering can, so I just used regular white vinegar.
 

Scrogdor

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I didn't want to gunk up my watering can, so I just used regular white vinegar.
Did a pH test today and it's between 8 and 8.5. So going to tinker around with some vinegar and water to see if I can get the water to a 6 pH.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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My tap water is drinkable where I'm at. The water quality report says the 2021 ppm was/is between 170-270 which I've heard by some is just fine, and by others is too high. I still do get a bit of lime scale build up around the bottom of pots and trunks of trees though. After a super dry year here in California I've noticed a couple of my trees becoming chlorotic from using so much tap water. Putting in a RO system isn't really an option. The trees that seem to dislike it the most are my hornbeams and a black gum that I have. My acers and elms all seem fine.

Does anyone have any experience with using hard water regularly? Some things I'm considering:

1) Buying spring water or anything with low ppm and using that for one week out of every month to try and flush some of the build up out.
2) I've heard that a little vinegar once a month can help during dry spells with no rain water.
3) Any recommendations for surface mulch that can help maintain acidity of the soil and prevent the top lair from drying out allowing minerals to harden?
4) Any recommendations for ferts that might help with this issue?
5) Any unconventional soils that I can use to help as well?

Thanks in advance.

@Scrogdor and @Tums - I'm not slamming Michael Hagedorn, but pH and total dissolved solids are SEPARATE problems, and tangling the two together will often leave both problems unsolved. But as I think about it, I'm not sure I can separate the two.

Hornbeam and black gum are known to be pH and or TDS sensitive, more so than most trees. It is not surprising that these two species would show problems where others show no symptoms. And honestly I don't know if pH or TDS is the bigger problem for the two species.

To the quoted text. 170 to 270 ppm total dissolved solids (tds) is really quite good for most horticultural purposes. I suspect that the NORMAL rainfall and weather situation. In spring when snow melt and rain is high, 170 might be typical and as weather gets dry, the tds of the surface waters will climb, to a normal summer number of 270 ppm. Especially if your water is coming from a river, or surface water, in a drought situation the TDS could be much higher in drought episodes that the seasonal cycle would normally be. So the water you have might be much higher tds than the "Annual Water Report" might give you.

So what to do?
1. only your Tupelo and Hornbeam are showing symptoms, the rest seem fine, so do nothing for the trees that look fine.

2. You can mix in some rain water, distilled water, deionized water, or other lower total dissolved solids water. A once a week soak of this lower TDS water may go a long way to helping your trees until you get some significant natural rain. Make sure you have rain barrels to store rain for next summer when rain finally comes.

3. the Eric Schrader video (Bonsaify Video) that @Cofga posted is excellent and I highly recommend adjust the pH of your water in addition to trying to reduce the TDS of your water. You can use a crushed vitamin C pill intended for human consumption if you don't have bulk crystalline vitamin C laying around the house..

Give both a try, see if it works.
 

Scrogdor

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@Scrogdor and @Tums - I'm not slamming Michael Hagedorn, but pH and total dissolved solids are SEPARATE problems, and tangling the two together will often leave both problems unsolved. But as I think about it, I'm not sure I can separate the two.

Hornbeam and black gum are known to be pH and or TDS sensitive, more so than most trees. It is not surprising that these two species would show problems where others show no symptoms. And honestly I don't know if pH or TDS is the bigger problem for the two species.

To the quoted text. 170 to 270 ppm total dissolved solids (tds) is really quite good for most horticultural purposes. I suspect that the NORMAL rainfall and weather situation. In spring when snow melt and rain is high, 170 might be typical and as weather gets dry, the tds of the surface waters will climb, to a normal summer number of 270 ppm. Especially if your water is coming from a river, or surface water, in a drought situation the TDS could be much higher in drought episodes that the seasonal cycle would normally be. So the water you have might be much higher tds than the "Annual Water Report" might give you.

So what to do?
1. only your Tupelo and Hornbeam are showing symptoms, the rest seem fine, so do nothing for the trees that look fine.

2. You can mix in some rain water, distilled water, deionized water, or other lower total dissolved solids water. A once a week soak of this lower TDS water may go a long way to helping your trees until you get some significant natural rain. Make sure you have rain barrels to store rain for next summer when rain finally comes.

3. the Eric Schrader video (Bonsaify Video) that @Cofga posted is excellent and I highly recommend adjust the pH of your water in addition to trying to reduce the TDS of your water. You can use a crushed vitamin C pill intended for human consumption if you don't have bulk crystalline vitamin C laying around the house..

Give both a try, see if it works.
I have pretty limited space so I can't really collect rainwater. But I think I'm going to attack the pH of my water since it's pretty high, and try and do two weeks out of the month where I use some lower ppm/tds water. I don't have that many trees so could probably get away with buying just a couple gallons for each watering.

Is 100% distilled okay if it's just two weeks out of the month?
 
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Tums

Shohin
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@Scrogdor and @Tums - I'm not slamming Michael Hagedorn, but pH and total dissolved solids are SEPARATE problems, and tangling the two together will often leave both problems unsolved. But as I think about it, I'm not sure I can separate the two.

Hornbeam and black gum are known to be pH and or TDS sensitive, more so than most trees. It is not surprising that these two species would show problems where others show no symptoms. And honestly I don't know if pH or TDS is the bigger problem for the two species.

To the quoted text. 170 to 270 ppm total dissolved solids (tds) is really quite good for most horticultural purposes. I suspect that the NORMAL rainfall and weather situation. In spring when snow melt and rain is high, 170 might be typical and as weather gets dry, the tds of the surface waters will climb, to a normal summer number of 270 ppm. Especially if your water is coming from a river, or surface water, in a drought situation the TDS could be much higher in drought episodes that the seasonal cycle would normally be. So the water you have might be much higher tds than the "Annual Water Report" might give you.

So what to do?
1. only your Tupelo and Hornbeam are showing symptoms, the rest seem fine, so do nothing for the trees that look fine.

2. You can mix in some rain water, distilled water, deionized water, or other lower total dissolved solids water. A once a week soak of this lower TDS water may go a long way to helping your trees until you get some significant natural rain. Make sure you have rain barrels to store rain for next summer when rain finally comes.

3. the Eric Schrader video (Bonsaify Video) that @Cofga posted is excellent and I highly recommend adjust the pH of your water in addition to trying to reduce the TDS of your water. You can use a crushed vitamin C pill intended for human consumption if you don't have bulk crystalline vitamin C laying around the house..

Give both a try, see if it works.
I understand pH and TDS/alkalinity/hardness are two separate if correlated concepts, but practically, what difference does the TDS make besides having a larger buffering capacity? Is it that the extra minerals will build up regardless of the water pH and that needs to be taken into account for fertilizing?
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I have pretty limited space so I can't really collect rainwater. But I think I'm going to attack the pH of my water since it's pretty high, and try and do two weeks out of the month where I use some lower ppm/tds water. I don't have that many trees so could probably get away with buying just a couple gallons for each watering.

Is 100% distilled okay if it's just two weeks out of the month?

Watering with pure distilled water is rough on trees, all plants really except carnivorous plants. Trees need some minerals to avoid osmotic shock and leaching out nutrients from tissues. I recommend for your low TDS watering 90% distilled mixed with 10% tap water. That will add back enough minerals to avoid problems. Don't use pure distilled water. A touch of fertilizer, around 1/4 teaspoon per gallon can also be used to add minerals back to distilled water. It depends on whether fertilizer is needed at that time of year. But plain distilled water is "too pure". Even rain water has some minerals due to dust, etc. So add a little something to distilled water.
Otherwise a good plan.

I understand pH and TDS/alkalinity/hardness are two separate if correlated concepts, but practically, what difference does the TDS make besides having a larger buffering capacity? Is it that the extra minerals will build up regardless of the water pH and that needs to be taken into account for fertilizing?

Yes they are separate traits.

Most methods of adjusting pH increase the total dissolved solids. Add vinegar, pH goes down (more acidic) the dissolved solids go up. Add citric acid, pH goes down, the dissolved solids increase. Sodium Hydroxide the pH goes up (more alkaline) and the total dissolved solids increase.

As your total dissolved solids increase, there is a point at which your hard water plus your fertilizer will pass the point at which the plant or tree will find it "acceptable". As in the examples of the black gum and the hornbeam being known to be sensitive to water issues, your current situation is pushing their ability to adapt. They are having difficulty coping. Now I am not clear whether it is excess minerals as in Calcium carbonate, or whether it is just generic osmotic issues as would relate to total dissolved solids, but these two species are known to be sensitive to hard water, and intolerant of alkaline soils.

So in practice, often high pH and excess TDS go hand in hand because for most of USA dissolved solids in water is either Calcium carbonate or in some rare situations a mixture of calcium carbonate and calcium sulfate (gypsum soils or limestone with selenite rock aquifers).

Most trees like elms, pines, junipers and North American maples can tolerate very high tds water, even over 600 ppm tds. I lived for a brief semester in southwest Wisconsin where our well water was 1400 parts per million as calcium carbonate. Tomato plants loved it, fish bounced twice before going under, but corn and beans grew well with it. White lime scale on all dishes, clothes were always a little scratchy, but the water tasted fine. Strong bones. There was enough Magnesium in the water (dolomite aquifer) that for the first week or so living there one had loose stool until your gut could adjust. But after that you're fine. There is a reason a certain brand of beer from southwest Wisconsin is not tolerated by the guts of many drinkers, its due to the high magnesium in the water.

But trees that are known calcifuges, like azalea, hornbeam, black gum, carnivorous plants, blueberries and a few others can not cope with the high calcium and or high tds content.
 

Scrogdor

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Got a small 1lb bag of citric acid. It was very easy to find the right amount that brought the pH of my water to 5.5-6.0. Felt much easier than vinegar and it doesn't smell as well. This bag will last me a life time as the amount I'm using is about 1/64th of a teaspoon in a gallon of water. Hoping the combination of reduced pH water and monthly flushes with distilled/tap mixture will have a positive effect, won't really know until next summer most likely since fall is officially here. Appreciate everyone's help, I'll try to update this post on my results in the future.
 
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