Good word.Jeeeeezus Chris why do you think he posted it, Thanks
Someone step up and be Big. We are getting sick of wading thru the doody...
I've taken Will's advice, I've changed the channel. I keep twirling the knob, but it's always the same old crap. Reminds me a lot of why I haven't had TV for last nine years. I keep hoping it will change, but search in vain for a decent, intelligent discussion or debate free of the vicious venom that soon crops up.Good word.
I am speaking as an objective observer who does not know any of you well enough to take sides.
I have much bonsai to learn from nearly all of you but I am afraid today.
I am afraid that many true masters of the art do not have time nor desire to be around such negativity and thus will not frequent such places such as BNUT for long.
I am afraid that a new generation of artists would feel locked out of such conversations. If they do not have such as you to learn from, where will they go for tutelage? Will they give up the art altogether? Do those of you who have ascended bear any responsibility for your leadership of others?
Based on these concerns, I have a request. For the sake of the art (if not for your fellow person) if someone wise suggests that the atmosphere is becoming toxic, is there a possibility of taking a discussion offline? You may then duke it out to your little heart's content without causing collateral damage.
You can then come back here and teach me how to do this thing we call bonsai...
Thank you for your consideration
BTW: Remember, the only true leadership is servant leadership ;-)
I can think of at least three forums where civil, intelligent discussion is not only the norm, but is demanded. I can think of at least three where some of the best artists of our time participate, one where Robert Steven actively gives styling advice and critiques on bonsai, one where Dan Barton has begun giving pottery advice and discussion, one where the activity is constantly active and bonsai is discussed regularly.I keep hoping it will change, but search in vain for a decent, intelligent discussion or debate free of the vicious venom that soon crops up.
True and this has been proved on a few fronts.It's toxic and it may be lethal.
Not all forums and not all who can contribute, there are many left and more are joining the Internet revolution. What I have noticed is a huge influx of beginners on the discussion forums and this will even get bigger as the Internet continues to be promoted as a tool.The forums are in sad shape these days and getting worse week by week. Most of those who could contribute immensely have just thrown up their hands. There's hardly anyone left.
This quote pretty much sums things up in my mind. When I first started visiting bonsai websites 3-4 years ago, every day brought new posts by veteran hobbyists or professionals...awesome tree pics, great info filled discussions, good advice, etc. Granted, there would be some heated discussion, and the occasional blowup would happen, but these were a mere fraction of the total volume of material posted. Today, unfortunately, that fraction has grown considerably to the point that today, the majority of posting has little or no value to me any more. The scary thing to consider is that, if I feel this way, I can't imagine how someone like Brent, with his vast experience/knowledge base, would even bother visiting these places anymore. These sites are only as good as those members that are willing to participate, and fewer and fewer folks like Brent are showing up. Truly sad.You all better figure it out soon, or it will be just the blind leading the blind. I hate being so negative, but I am actually getting a lot more done in the nursery and enjoying my own plants a lot more since I stopped staying so invested here.
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com
This quote pretty much sums things up in my mind. When I first started visiting bonsai websites 3-4 years ago, every day brought new posts by veteran hobbyists or professionals...awesome tree pics, great info filled discussions, good advice, etc. Granted, there would be some heated discussion, and the occasional blowup would happen, but these were a mere fraction of the total volume of material posted. Today, unfortunately, that fraction has grown considerably to the point that today, the majority of posting has little or no value to me any more. The scary thing to consider is that, if I feel this way, I can't imagine how someone like Brent, with his vast experience/knowledge base, would even bother visiting these places anymore. These sites are only as good as those members that are willing to participate, and fewer and fewer folks like Brent are showing up. Truly sad.
Dave,These sites are only as good as those members that are willing to participate, and fewer and fewer folks like Brent are showing up. Truly sad.
Preachin to the Choir my man.that such debates serve to get us thinking about what we believe and why, that they are educational and would be much better if everyone stuck to the topic, and the bickering was left out.
In short I think it is safe to say that debates are educational and should be have in a civil manner in which the subject is debated, not the people having the discussion.
Can't say as I agree on this one, see Bren'ts, and Walters replies of this thread.However, like I did with Brent's response, I must disagree with the statement you made, which I quoted above. I don't believe that this is even true for this site, as going back to the beginning, I see no really experienced people that were there then that are not here now. Brent, Bill, and Walter are all here on a daily basis and only Dale seems to have disappeared, but who still checks in now and then. Will
Take out the word still above and I totally agree with the statement, thats why we are here.But there is still a need for interaction, especially with critique, beginners, advice, and this is where forums could and should be focused on. There are many forums that try to be everything for everybody and all that happens is a mish-mash of information and a difficult data base to find anything in. There are too many forums doing the same thing, hell even copying each other, right down to layout, mission, etc. Will
With this I must agree, but what we all expect is for anyone to put forth thier wisdom, and let the me's digest it and figure out whom is full of prunes. If you disagree on merit, by all means put forth the wisdom, debating semantics when the intent is clear, is the result of being full of prunes.Blogs offer a look inside only the mind of a single artist. Forums offer a look inside many minds, but they allow all minds, beginner, expert, master, idiot, and the resulting mix is not always pleasant. Will
Well glad you are(not really although I bet you would guess that), but I will stretch the authority a bit and say WE aren't. What we really want is genuine discussion and advice about bonsai, with the occasional life tidbits, and humor, in the appropriate places.Just thinking on the subject and enjoying the discussion, Will
...I am really sick of all this.
I am guilty of giving them a chance, I need to learn to ignore more and use my ignore feature again..... I am p....d off to see a handful of paranoid lunatics chasing Will all over the forums and seeing Will readily giving them a chance to do so.
This is a very important statement. I have said before that there are forums out there where all parties here are members at and the crap never happens. Tom wisely points out that this is a self moderated forum, grand idea but very little self moderating takes place, instead it is like a grade school classroom when the teacher steps out for a minute....all the kids throwing spitballs ruin it for the rest who also get extra homework..... I am p..d off by very poorly moderated forums.
Excellent analogy!.... A forum is like a bar. You don't have to go there.You got there because you want to. You want to be among people that give you some comfort. You go to the same bar all the time. Until one day the public changes. There is the bloke who used to be a serious sort of person and now gets drunk every night and says nasty things to folks. You try to ignore him. Then there are the juveniles who are way too loud and make it clear that they see you as a fat old fart. So you leave the bar and look for another one.
You like the new bar, but one day this drunkard or his steptwin find the new bar and bother you again. The juveniles have found the new bar too. One day someone spits at you. And the bar owner sees it and says nothing.
So you leave...
Yes, I've not only noticed, I am counting on it......have you noticed that people on the boards seem to be worlds apart geographically, and find themselves in the same events, or nurseries.
Oh, I could name three that are really strict, maybe the strictest out there that are far from being havens for newbies and boobs......Unfortunately I think the ranks have thinned some, at the same time I do not advocate getting totally strict, theres a couple of sites like that, they are social clubs of newbs being taught by other newbs, and some boobs.
As in West Side Story (O' Boy is this going to date me) each character going to a fight had a weapon, yours is the ignore button a form of peer pressure. If you don't respond to the offending individual then eventually there will be no enjoyment in posting the drivel. Unfortunately this requires participation by all.Tom there is a difference between walking in prepared if you should get in a fight, and walking in expecting a fight. I can deal with either, in real life someone comes at me he goes to sleep for a while, how do you suggest someone knocks someones block off here, cause thats what stops the repeat BS in a bar.
If Walter, Colin , Suthin did this we would all gasp and your example may work. They are brand names associated with high quality. If Bonsai Joe does it you might get a head shake and a giggle. So our "mechanism to deal with this" ends up with the moderator or the ignor button one. I know will work the other may not.If it's ours to make there is a mechanism to deal, this is it take em to task. Let the offenders reputation be sullied, it's a small world and getting smaller everyday, have you noticed that people on the boards seem to be worlds apart geographically, and find themselves in the same events, or nurseries.
Unfortunately in an unmoderated setting thats the choices it seems you have. None of us wants that, as we all are looking for the secret to bonsai and we don't want to miss any tid bit. We are constrained by the cyber walls of the forum and some choices in this setting are quite limited.You are correct and it's been said over and over, change the channel, don't look if you're squemish, ignor it, I don't think thats what very many here really want, but I think theres a bunch that wouldn't mind hanging out behind the barn for just one day.
In this instance possibly yes. He obviously has gone from one forum to another searching for the interaction that he desires. I know of one that he is satisfied with as there are never exchanges like this. For the rest of us switching up maybe the answer if "getting a grip" doesn't work.I think Walters point was that he's outta here to get away from it, not to go somewhere else if you don't like it.
I would agree, I even find myself cutting back on posts when most every thread strays off topic. I do enjoy this site quite a bit when its focused. However, if it doesn't give me what I need or desire then I cut back and look elsewhere till it comes back into line. As far as strict sites go? I think that the grand experiment has shown what happens when its missing. It would be nice to have our cake and eat it to, but with a mix of so many people, that IMO will never happen. I also gotta disagree with you on "strict" sites being havens for noobs. I can think of three maybe four that are advanced sites offering advanced topics and are far from social clubs.Unfortunately I think the ranks have thinned some, at the same time I do not advocate getting totally strict, theres a couple of sites like that, they are social clubs of newbs being taught by other newbs, and some boobs.
Another Bill Maher and a new Rule fan That rule is something to take to heart. However, some people incite for entertainment value by there own admission. So that guy thats 50 pounds heavier and six inches taller with the sloped forehead needs to be a mod. because people won't stop if they get pleasure out of it.If it's worth doing, it's worth doing it right. A not so bad way to go thru life. If you like the bar analogy, hows this - New rule - Before you hit send, read it and ask yourself, Self if this guy were 6 inches taller and 50 pounds heavier than I am, and he's standing next to me in the dark bar, would i still say it.
I agree, some great topics and people can be found here. I think its up to Greg now to take it to the next level if he can commit to that.BNut started to develope nicely, it still can.
Awhile back I used the ignore feature here and ignored the usual few people and guess what? It never stopped, in fact it accelerated once they learned they could do so without their baseless accusations and groundless attacks being defended against.Will, my friend...didn't your momma ever teach you that it takes two to tango. I've haven't been privy to all the nonsense that has surrounded you in the past but I have seen some of it here...but its really simple, if YOU would just ignore and not respond to the jabs they will go away. I don't know if you think you are protecting your honor or just trying to use your talents at word smithing to get even but the bottom line is this...stop responding no matter how tempting it is and it will stop. Your predictable responses are the sole fuel for the attacks...its time for someone to be the bigger person.
I never knew you ever posted there, I must have missed it.In relation to your comments about other forums and intelligent discussions, I am sure you aware that for the last 6 months or so KoBs posts were only averaging about 1 a day if that...I see that things have picked up slightly in the recent weeks but certainly not enough activity to for anyone to claim that there are intelligent discussions taking place. I personally won't ever post there again but that is a completely different matter.
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