Decandling pitch pine

[jaz419]

I have a pitch pine, and I'm thinking it's about time to decandle it in the next few weeks.

There's not a ton of info on pitch pines. I've basically read they can be treated like Japanese pines in terms of when and how to decandle.

Here's what my candles are looking like.

Like I said... I'm thinking 2 more weeks or so before decandling. Think my timing is about correct?

 

[Dav4]

The rule of thumb with de-candling, at least with JBP and JRP, is to do the deed with about 100 days of growing season left. If you do it too soon, the subsequent flush of new candles will have needles that grow too long. Do it too late and you might get very short needles or no new growth at all. I kept pitch pine a long time ago and found them very tough... never de-candled them, though. I suspect your calculated timing is fine. Good luck.

 

[jaz419]

The rule of thumb with de-candling, at least with JBP and JRP, is to do the deed with about 100 days of growing season left. If you do it too soon, the subsequent flush of new candles will have needles that grow too long. Do it too late and you might get very short needles or no new growth at all. I kept pitch pine a long time ago and found them very tough... never de-candled them, though. I suspect your calculated timing is fine. Good luck.

out of curiosity, you say you found pitch pine tough.

Do you mean hardy or do you mean difficult to keep alive in a pot?

 

[Dav4]

Able to take a lot of abuse... though I still worked mine to death.

 

[0soyoung]

Able to take a lot of abuse... though I still worked mine to death.

There is a certain pleasure in killing the unkillable, huh?
It is a strange, perverse delight to be that 'skilled'.

 

[sorce]

I wouldn't do it, doesn't seem healthy enough, and there is no good design reason to do at this time.

Sorce

 

[jaz419]

I wouldn't do it, doesn't seem healthy enough, and there is no good design reason to do at this time.

Sorce

What about it doesn’t look healthy? Honestly curious since I thought it looked fine... but I’m also pretty inexperienced so I don’t really have any idea.

the candles grew about 4” over the last month. It’s got some new budding around the trunk. All the old needles are nice and green.

is it that the candles aren’t very dense with new needles? I could tell it was different from my mugo, which has densely covered candles, but I just attributed that to variation due to species

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

I think it's because there are so few old needles.
Objectively, I see multiple candles per branch, good elongation. But subjectively I'm thinking: this is off for some reason.
Since rigida back buds so profusely, I think there's no harm in letting it grow for another year.

 

[sorce]

Amen the so few old needles.

If it decides it doesn't want to grow new buds, you're kinda hit.

imo.

It's growing such long candles, because it needs em, not because it's healthy. It may be healthy.

It doesn't look healthy....enough.

Is it nursery? Collected?

That "off" feeling, to me, has to do with previous work we can tell happened, but don't have text to read about.

Sorce

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Honestly, I think the tree looks strong enough for decandling.

Note: decandling is a technique for branches that are ready for refinement. As decandling will greatly slow the increase in caliper and length of any branch. It will increase ramification. You make the decision to decandle a branch on a branch by branch basis. Branches that need to develop, you do not decandle. It is perfectly normal to decandle the oldest branches on a pine (usually JBP or JRP). and let the younger branches keep growing.

 

[jaz419]

The guy I got it from has a lot of pitch pines that grow wild on his property. He says he collects them all the time and starts to train them in a similar manner. If I remember correctly, He collected this one about 2- 3 years ago. Then one year ago he wired it and bent the main trunk, and also bound a couple small branches together. He said he gets good results with those smaller branches fusing together after about 2 years. As far as I can tell, there hasn’t been any (or at least not a lot of) needle clusters removed.

it looks like it was probably about 3ft tall and just really long and twiggy with some needle clusters at the terminal ends. Then when he wired it and changed the shape, it just changed the position of the existing needle clusters.

I guess I need to start figuring out exactly how I want it to grow before I just start decandling. I know currently the longest candles on the lowest part of the tree aren’t going to be needed. Maybe I’ll just remove them this year and leave the rest to grow. It would only be 3 of them. Does that sound reasonable?


For Anyone who’s wondering... I got this tree because I have a nursery stock mugo, and some azaleas I collected. I wanted something else that wasn’t either of what I already had, and this happened to one of the cheapest options. Plus the guy said they’re hardy trees and grow well in my zone (6)

 

[Potawatomi13]

Nice interesting movement. Are these supposed to be uncandeled?

 

[jaz419]

Nice interesting movement. Are these supposed to be uncandeled?

from what I have read, they can be treated similar to JBP when it comes to candle removal... however they’re single flush

 

[Adair M]

from what I have read, they can be treated similar to JBP when it comes to candle removal... however they’re single flush

Ok, THAT’s confusing!

JBP are “double flush”. That means if you remove the spring candles (or shoots) it will grow a second flush of growth.

A “single flush” pine will not grow a second flush. It will (maybe!) produce a new set of buds which will grow the following spring. Sometimes, a decandled “single flush” pine will grow a second flush if it’s really strong. But not reliably. True double flush pines (JBP, JRP) can be counted on to produce that second set of foliage unless they’re very weak, in which case they shouldn’t be decandled.

So, in light of the above, what do you mean by “treat as JBP, but it’s a single flush”?

 

[jaz419]

Ok, THAT’s confusing!

JBP are “double flush”. That means if you remove the spring candles (or shoots) it will grow a second flush of growth.

A “single flush” pine will not grow a second flush. It will (maybe!) produce a new set of buds which will grow the following spring. Sometimes, a decandled “single flush” pine will grow a second flush if it’s really strong. But not reliably. True double flush pines (JBP, JRP) can be counted on to produce that second set of foliage unless they’re very weak, in which case they shouldn’t be decandled.

So, in light of the above, what do you mean by “treat as JBP, but it’s a single flush”?

This is part of what I’m trying to figure out via this thread. There’s not a ton of info specific to pitch pines. Some other posts Or articles I’ve found have had abridged advice on decandling such as “treat it is a JBP” or “treat it s as a Japanese pine species”. Which is vague but also not completely unhelpful.

I do understand the fundamental difference between single and double flush... just curious if anyone with pitch pine experience would chime in.

Apparently there’s a section about them in a book called “bonsai in the wild” which I’ll have to look up and see if I can get a copy

 

[Adair M]

This is part of what I’m trying to figure out via this thread. There’s not a ton of info specific to pitch pines. Some other posts Or articles I’ve found have had abridged advice on decandling such as “treat it is a JBP” or “treat it s as a Japanese pine species”. Which is vague but also not completely unhelpful.

I do understand the fundamental difference between single and double flush... just curious if anyone with pitch pine experience would chime in.

Apparently there’s a section about them in a book called “bonsai in the wild” which I’ll have to look up and see if I can get a copy

well, there’s a Japanese White Pine, and it’s handled completely differently.

whatever you do, you’ll learn something from the experience!

 

[Potawatomi13]

Do these grow epicormic buds/sprouts? If so perhaps candle cutting makes new branches sprout from "inactive" areas.

 

[BonjourBonsai]

@jaz419, I've got a few pitch pines too. I know that they like sun and will back bud from the base all summer long but that might not be what you're looking for. I rub those suckers off. There are some other threads on here about P Pine care. Did you decide to decandle?

 

[Mike Corazzi]

The thread suggests to me that trading it for a double flush would do more for anxiety than prozac.