Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
An apex is just another pad/branch, it just happens to be the top one. Make sure it is situated correctly for the right visual effect.
decandling some pines
- Thread starter Shibui
- Start date
Well... not exactly. I like to think of the apex as being a little broom style tree sitting on top.
One trick is to spin a little branch around to get foliage right over the center.
@Shibui , Here are two examples:
Tree 1 from the front:
Tree 1 from the top:
Tree 2 from the front:
Tree 2 from the top:
Brian Van Fleet
Pretty Fly for a Bonsai Guy
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Thanks for the tips guys. Now all I need to do is work out how to do it with the trees. Looking at the photos I need lots more shoots that can be wired around to fill the spaces.
In the meantime more wiring. There's now nearly enough copper on these trees to electrify a small village.
red pine
The taller JBP fully wired
I also decided it was time to take the sacrifice branches off a smaller JBP and make a start on branching.
before:
After removing 2 sacrifice branches
and wired up.
I think the apex will move a bit as it develops. I've wired a branch up in preparation for removing the current apex in a year or 2 maybe.
In the meantime more wiring. There's now nearly enough copper on these trees to electrify a small village.
red pine
The taller JBP fully wired
I also decided it was time to take the sacrifice branches off a smaller JBP and make a start on branching.
before:
After removing 2 sacrifice branches
and wired up.
I think the apex will move a bit as it develops. I've wired a branch up in preparation for removing the current apex in a year or 2 maybe.
Wilson
Masterpiece
Great projects @Shibui I love JBP and JRP.
As Brian mentioned and Adair showed the apex isn't a leader poking up, but a collection of branches creating your dome/apex. I think it was in a demo Colin Lewis gave where he discusses peoples tendency to leave a mini tree on top of their tree. We often think when designing we need the leader up top, but then we never seem to be able to shape a whole apex.
As Brian mentioned and Adair showed the apex isn't a leader poking up, but a collection of branches creating your dome/apex. I think it was in a demo Colin Lewis gave where he discusses peoples tendency to leave a mini tree on top of their tree. We often think when designing we need the leader up top, but then we never seem to be able to shape a whole apex.
River's Edge
Masterpiece
The Irish potato approach involves three small branches curving in a circle to create a central pad. Wire flat,
Nice beginnings. I too recommend finishing all wiring before placing branches, then working from. bottom to top for placement. Wire branchlets flat to form shape of pad outline in the first instance. Initial result is not as pleasing but the end result requires less re placement.
I also admit that if I do not complete all the wiring before placement, the odds are high that it will wait till the next styling session and delay the actual progress.
let buds extend upward. Voila. Often starts with one small branch and then involves offshoots!
KiwiPlantGuy
Omono
Hi,
I hope you don’t mind me asking here about decandling my most advanced JBP. It is 4-5 years old. I am letting the sacrifice go and tried decandling the other lower branches in mid-Dec a week or so short of the longest day. Today I only have maybe 1.5cm of growth and tiny not yet formed needles (0.5cm).
Does my sacrifice trunk reduce the effect of the decandling so not enough resources go there.
Or am I not early enough in my decandling?
Thanks, Charles
I hope you don’t mind me asking here about decandling my most advanced JBP. It is 4-5 years old. I am letting the sacrifice go and tried decandling the other lower branches in mid-Dec a week or so short of the longest day. Today I only have maybe 1.5cm of growth and tiny not yet formed needles (0.5cm).
Does my sacrifice trunk reduce the effect of the decandling so not enough resources go there.
Or am I not early enough in my decandling?
Thanks, Charles
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
A picture would help us understand what is happening Charles.
I decandle (or de-shoot as someone pointed out earlier) from mid December through to Christmas. That leaves plenty of time for the new shoots to grow, open and harden before winter stops growth. Your climate should be fairly similar, maybe even a bit warmer depending which part of NZ so the timing should be good.
It is definitely possible that the tree is pouring all resources into the sacrifice branch and essentially giving up on the lover part that something keeps eating. Most trees aim to be the tallest in the forest so it makes sense for them to pour resources into the higher parts that are growing best.
Last year I reduced fertiliser a little too much before decandling an had a very poor response. The trees do need to be fed well and healthy before the stress of decandling. We've noticed that feeding through winter and spring can give extra boost to pines that are developing.
The last JBP above had a strong sacrifice branch and responded well to decandling the rest of the tree. I did lower the branch a little so it was not quite so dominant when I started decandling the other branches a couple of years ago. You haven't mentioned whether your branch is above or below which could be a clue.
I'm hoping that as long as you have viable buds you can still get growth where you need it but you may need to remove the sacrifice branch or lower it to convince your tree to send resources to the bits you want to keep.
Let's see what it look like as there may be clues you have not thought to mention.
I decandle (or de-shoot as someone pointed out earlier) from mid December through to Christmas. That leaves plenty of time for the new shoots to grow, open and harden before winter stops growth. Your climate should be fairly similar, maybe even a bit warmer depending which part of NZ so the timing should be good.
It is definitely possible that the tree is pouring all resources into the sacrifice branch and essentially giving up on the lover part that something keeps eating. Most trees aim to be the tallest in the forest so it makes sense for them to pour resources into the higher parts that are growing best.
Last year I reduced fertiliser a little too much before decandling an had a very poor response. The trees do need to be fed well and healthy before the stress of decandling. We've noticed that feeding through winter and spring can give extra boost to pines that are developing.
The last JBP above had a strong sacrifice branch and responded well to decandling the rest of the tree. I did lower the branch a little so it was not quite so dominant when I started decandling the other branches a couple of years ago. You haven't mentioned whether your branch is above or below which could be a clue.
I'm hoping that as long as you have viable buds you can still get growth where you need it but you may need to remove the sacrifice branch or lower it to convince your tree to send resources to the bits you want to keep.
Let's see what it look like as there may be clues you have not thought to mention.
KiwiPlantGuy
Omono
Hi,
I think you got all bases covered lol. This pine below started life as a tall (1.2metre) seedling which I bent to try stuff. It is also my practice tree to find out what works. The year before last 2018 I tried the decandling thing on the longest day, and got the same result. I live in Christchurch which is similar to Melbourne I believe.
Hope this helps somewhat.
Charles
Shibui
Imperial Masterpiece
Now I am a bit confused. The new shoots on that pine seem perfect. 1.5 cm of new shoot is just what you want to get after decandling. Longer shoots would blow an established bonsai way out of proportion every year.
The needles on those new shoot are also an excellent result. Your mature pine bonsai needs short needles to give good proportion.
I think I can see a couple of branches where only one new shoot grew. That's not desirable from a ramification perspective but also not unusual if not fed enough or, in this case, where most of the effort is going into a high sacrifice branch.
I cannot see evidence of previous decandling on the shoot you've showed. maybe the prevous attempt was another tree? Somewhere else on this tree?
You also mention bending but I can't see any bends either. Maybe hidden by all the needles?
I understand if this is just a trial of decandling but this tree is nowhere near ready for decandling technique yet IMHO I would still be allowing free growth for a couple of years at a time to get max thickening then cutting back hard into the oldest needles to get new shoots back in lower areas.
The decandling technique is often promoted and discussed but is really only useful on more mature pines to promote final ramification and maintain established structure. I use a completely different regime for trees that are developing.
The needles on those new shoot are also an excellent result. Your mature pine bonsai needs short needles to give good proportion.
I think I can see a couple of branches where only one new shoot grew. That's not desirable from a ramification perspective but also not unusual if not fed enough or, in this case, where most of the effort is going into a high sacrifice branch.
I cannot see evidence of previous decandling on the shoot you've showed. maybe the prevous attempt was another tree? Somewhere else on this tree?
You also mention bending but I can't see any bends either. Maybe hidden by all the needles?
I understand if this is just a trial of decandling but this tree is nowhere near ready for decandling technique yet IMHO I would still be allowing free growth for a couple of years at a time to get max thickening then cutting back hard into the oldest needles to get new shoots back in lower areas.
The decandling technique is often promoted and discussed but is really only useful on more mature pines to promote final ramification and maintain established structure. I use a completely different regime for trees that are developing.
KiwiPlantGuy
Omono
Hi,
Thank you for your answers. I guess I am impatient as I thought the growth should be further along by now. As this is my practice tree I think I have learnt when the best time to decandle when my trees are ready. Time to be a grasshopper for another few years lol.
I guess I have to learn to let things grow for maximum strength.
Thanks again,
Charles
