Decisions on Leader, Hornbeam

[Timbo]

Trying to figure out what leader I want to chop to. Just above the flare base it's 5 1/2-6in trunk. The current 2 leaders are 20in and 21in. My original plan was 30-32in crown.
If I cut both leaders off and go with the blue line, I'll lose a year or 2 in growth on the top. I like the lower left branch height though. Also worried about more dieback if I chop both leaders, as you can see I have decent dieback, which might make a OK looking hollowing it out.
Doesn't show the movement or "muscles" very well in the pics, I think the backside has a bigger base flare. I was leaving the sacrificial branch to help heal the sunburn or whatever it is on the flare.

 

[leatherback]

To be honest.. With the big chop you have, and the die-back on the trunk and the (lack of) taper in the trunk, I would opt for A LOT lower chop. One of the 2 lowest branches. If the current leaders grew while it was planted in the ground.. It should be strong enough to deal with the chop / carving without dying back further.

 

[Timbo]

I suppose I could do this. I would like to keep all the muscle look in the middle though, I imagine it would take many years to develop the muscle back. If I go with that branch, I can decide which side will be front later. Back would have a better flare but less muscle. Actually like that look, just will lose a few years of thickening...oh well, guess I could have cut lower. With a single leader and my good root system it might not take 2 years to catch up.
Forgive the bad drawing.

 

[just.wing.it]

It reminds me of mine.
I also should have chopped lower....but now its a carving job....and I need a die grinder set up!

It is a nice trunk though....nice muscles.

 

[leatherback]

Make sure you get @BobbyLane in here too. He might have a VERY different view

 

[BobbyLane]

would probably go lower too, as the proportions dont look quite right.

 

[Timbo]

would probably go lower too, as the proportions dont look quite right.

Lower than I marked on the 2nd set of drawings?

 

[Timbo]

It reminds me of mine.
I also should have chopped lower....but now its a carving job....and I need a die grinder set up!

It is a nice trunk though....nice muscles.

Yeah, that's where I would have issues, I have a Dremel and a grinder, just not the right bits. Even a saw is hard to get into the deadwood, American hornbeams are SO dense.

 

[sorce]

I don't know if these heal, but this one didn't like that, so I'd do this.



Sorce

 

[BobbyLane]

Probably like what Source suggested, or i often do cuts like this with an electric saw



but because one of your two low branches is a bit higher than the other, Source's idea might look better for this tree.

 

[Timbo]

They heal OK in the ground, Just takes a long time. You can see it rolling up top, that's only a few years worth. It's going to take MANY years. Only problem with cutting it that much of an angle is the branch in the back is slightly higher than the bottom branch, that I might use if the back is the front.

Probably like what Source suggested, or i often do cuts like this with an electric saw

I might do the V, the way hornbeams branches grow somewhat vertical, I tend to accidently rough up the branches with a saw cutting flat..

 

[BobbyLane]

i think there is too much obsession with healing, almost frenzied. people will make posts apologising about scars that havnt healed, who cares! i dont!
if there is an option to make a cut in such a way that the scar isnt visible from your chosen front, it shouldnt even be a talking point. because its not even visible.
in the V cut i did above, once the callus begins to roll in and you view the tree from the base upwards, over time it will just begin to look like a trunk that splits into two. carving can help to shave down the excess wood for a smoother transition. but i may hollow out the top section once the wood begins to dry out, so it might be hollow from the top and even retain water, i dont mind, the water will find a way out.

in regards to your tree, its not really the best angle, we are looking at it from almost above. once you do the cut and view the tree from the base upwards there will be no visible wound! just a slanting cut.

 

[leatherback]

who cares! i dont!

Mwa.. I think it is about the style of bonsai you are trying to grow. Traditional Japanese bonsai do not allow for large scars. I think it is valid to want to close cuts especially if you are about growing traditionally styled trees.

 

[Mike Westervelt]

I suppose I could do this. I would like to keep all the muscle look in the middle though, I imagine it would take many years to develop the muscle back. If I go with that branch, I can decide which side will be front later. Back would have a better flare but less muscle. Actually like that look, just will lose a few years of thickening...oh well, guess I could have cut lower. With a single leader and my good root system it might not take 2 years to catch up.
Forgive the bad drawing.


View attachment 349027View attachment 349028

Yes! that's it.
Besides the scar issue, the trunk has no taper in your first plan.

 

[BobbyLane]

some of the trees i see, i doubt they will ever have all the characteristics of a traditionally styled Japanese tree even when the the scars are fully healed, so i dont get the obsession tbh.

reminds me again of this quote:

"Im not interested in creating the same tree, over and over again" Ryan Neil 2020

 

[leatherback]

"Im not interested in creating the same tree, over and over again" Ryan Neil 2020

He really is your hero is he?

In any case. Did not say all trees have to be Japanese styled. Not obsessed either. I just noted: This is a hobby/art with certain aims. One of the highest aims in the traiditional forms is a blemish-free trunk. So it is logical that people care to close cuts and reduce scars to a minimum. That you as a person do not care for it, is a separate point altogether?

 

[Timbo]

Mwa.. I think it is about the style of bonsai you are trying to grow. Traditional Japanese bonsai do not allow for large scars. I think it is valid to want to close cuts especially if you are about growing traditionally styled trees.

He really is your hero is he?

In any case. Did not say all trees have to be Japanese styled. Not obsessed either. I just noted: This is a hobby/art with certain aims. One of the highest aims in the traiditional forms is a blemish-free trunk. So it is logical that people care to close cuts and reduce scars to a minimum. That you as a person do not care for it, is a separate point altogether?

some of the trees i see, i doubt they will ever have all the characteristics of a traditionally styled Japanese tree even when the the scars are fully healed, so i dont get the obsession tbh.

reminds me again of this quote:

"Im not interested in creating the same tree, over and over again" Ryan Neil 2020

When I made the drawing, wasn't really set in stone that I was going to make it that way...was more just getting a visual of where the cut would be and the taper. Not a fan of all the S-shape Chinese elms, they just look too manufactured, and you are right about the same tree over and over. I am looking for something natural that the tree gives me, I actually like the look of a hollow knot, not to hide it. I'm more worried about it creating some kind of reverse taper because I didn't carve it out enough.

I'm not a pro by any means, but I tend to like bigger bonsai, just my interest. I take what people say, not concerned if it turns out to be an award winning tree or not TBH, as long as it stays alive!

Also wondering if I can get away with doing both root work and a chop this late winter/spring. I had it in a pot for the first year of being collected, it grew a good amount of roots, It's been in the ground since April 2017. Wanted to dig it up, look at the roots, trim them if needed so they don't get out of hand( If they aren't already). There is a slightly bigger root base under the ground, didn't want the young roots to dry out when I buried it. Pretty vigorous growth for up here this past year, it seems healthy.

 

[leatherback]

I would NOT chop and dig. I would use the fact that you have a great root system now. If you cut, you can regrow the new leader as tall as you have it now in one year.
Digging now would really reduce the re-grow potential.

 

[Timbo]

That's what I was worried about, could do root work next season then I guess.

 

[sorce]

I don't care if you heal it or carve it.

Knowing which, and having a plan for it, and acting on it at the right time, is important though.

Sucks that dense wood keeps, AND keeps eating your bits. Catch 22.

But that's why I'd hit it good to begin healing.
A small hole is more believable to me than carved up Deciduous trees. So I appreciate simple "almost healed" uros the best.

If you'll carve it, I think you can do your chop. If not, I think it will heal best...read, GIVE YOU THE NICEST OUTER TRUNK LINE, cut from low branch to branch.

If you "follow the rules", like, even reasonably breaking some....
I think the problem with the high chop, is that your interest isn't going to begin...like ever.

Keeping it close to that "muscle" is what is going to make it interesting.

I don't see this finished tree needing to be any higher than where the tear begins. Maybe a wee higher.

I'd try to heal the chop and when the hole is almost shut, shave it and drill a thread graft thru.
Utilize that wicked chop tAper. Keep it small.

Sorce