Declining Health of Nishiki(?)

Catalyst05

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This past August, 2013, I acquired a Nishiki Pine (am unsure of specific variety) from the Midwest Bonsai Show. It was styled with wire and needle plucked prior to my acquisition. It looked healthy, and had light yellowy green needles.

I live in Wisconsin, Zone 5b. The tree was wintered a week or two before Thanksgiving in a house attachment with no wind, but good air circulation, and indirect light. The temperatures in the wintering attachment are 10 degrees F higher than outside, so a normal temperature range would be between 10-45 degrees F.

I am concerned about the health of the tree. The tree looks as pictured below (using two types of lighting to show how it might look). I do not know enough about the Nishiki variety to know what to expect. To me, the needles look a light grey-yellow-green, but my other normal Japanese Black Pines are not doing anything like this. What do you think?
 

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tmmason10

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I hate to say this, but the tree looks a lot like the Jbp I had before it died. How do the buds/candles look?
 

Catalyst05

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The buds are whiteish, but extremely small (1-3mm). I think you can see one of them in the pictures. I don't really have a point of reference as to what they're supposed to be like for a nishiki.
 

october

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I hate to say this, but the tree looks a lot like the Jbp I had before it died. How do the buds/candles look?

I think Tom might be right. This tree looks like it might already be dead. I am sorry if this is the case.

Rob
 

Catalyst05

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In any case, would it be good policy to hang on to it in case it does do something in spring? Or just chuck it now to avoid the despair of having a tree die on you.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I'd hang onto it until April and see if candles start to extend, but by then, you'll know because the needles will be unchanged, or will have fallen off.
 

GrimLore

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It does not look promising but myself I always keep specimens I like for at least two seasons as SOME do things nobody can explain and it all works out. Worst case if it lives is that you have an "older" tree with some history.

Grimmy
 

october

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You mentioned you had purchased this tree is August 2013. Pines can take a few months to die. Did anything happen around December that would have caused this tree to die? Although going back to August might be a little far. If nothing happened during your care, maybe the tree was already on it's way out when you purchased it. Also, you mentioned it had light yellowy green needles. I don't think that was a good sign.

Rob
 

Catalyst05

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You mentioned you had purchased this tree is August 2013. Pines can take a few months to die. Did anything happen around December that would have caused this tree to die? Although going back to August might be a little far. If nothing happened during your care, maybe the tree was already on it's way out when you purchased it. Also, you mentioned it had light yellowy green needles. I don't think that was a good sign.

Rob

I think you might be right. The best explanation I can think of is the vendor attempting to style, pulling needles and wiring the tree, prior to my purchase. I've heard that Nishikis are especially sensitive if you do too many things to them in a single season. I did see die-back on the leader around when I put it up in mid-November, which I thought was due to the vendor only leaving a single pair of needles on the branch.

On my end, I brought the tree home, set it next to my other Japanese Black Pines, and watered/fertilized like any other pine until it was put away in mid-November. However, the winter here has been especially harsh, getting to below 60 with windchill, but that shouldn't matter in the house attachment, there's no wind, and it never reached below 10 degrees F.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I think you might be right. The best explanation I can think of is the vendor attempting to style, pulling needles and wiring the tree, prior to my purchase. I've heard that Nishikis are especially sensitive if you do too many things to them in a single season. I did see die-back on the leader around when I put it up in mid-November, which I thought was due to the vendor only leaving a single pair of needles on the branch.

On my end, I brought the tree home, set it next to my other Japanese Black Pines, and watered/fertilized like any other pine until it was put away in mid-November. However, the winter here has been especially harsh, getting to below 60 with windchill, but that shouldn't matter in the house attachment, there's no wind, and it never reached below 10 degrees F.
While it seems like a lot, that work isn't too much...done at the right time...which is November-December, not August, unless you're very skilled, careful, and can assure proper aftercare.

A total guess, but if it's loose in the pot now, the August work could have loosened it up in the pot, damaging the roots, and decreasing the tree's ability to take up water.
 

Vance Wood

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I do not have personal experience with Nishiki Matsu but I have personal experience with a number of well educated and experienced bonsai growers who have had them and not one has ever survived more than two years.
 

Catalyst05

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Has the soil dried out while overwintering?

It's really hard to tell, because everything has been a frozen block for a while now. It starting snowing very early this year, in mid-November, and the second it started snowing is when I put the trees up for winter storage. I would like to answer your question no, since they have pretty consistently remained frozen and I have continued to water every 3-4 weeks. I have quite a few regular Japanese Black Pines sitting right beside the Nishiki, receiving the same treatment, but they are still dark to medium green.

I'm trying to find a good lesson learned here that I can perhaps apply in the future. How do you deal with a stressed tree when it comes to wintering? Or is the lesson learned something like: Don't over-invest with a Nishiki variety because they are relatively fickle (as Vance seems to suggest)?
 

fredtruck

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I've had a Mi Nishiki Cork Bark Japanese black pine for 12 years. I have 3 other corkers that have been in my possession for 4, 5 and 7 years.

I think Brian Van Fleet has had corkers at least as long as I have.

My guess is that your tree got too cold. I avoid having my corkers freeze. I prefer to have them wintered at about 40 degrees. I never let them get below 35 degrees.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I'm trying to find a good lesson learned here that I can perhaps apply in the future. How do you deal with a stressed tree when it comes to wintering? Or is the lesson learned something like: Don't over-invest with a Nishiki variety because they are relatively fickle (as Vance seems to suggest)?

Here are a few lessons to consider:
1. Yes, they grow slower than standard JBP, so they must be treated with a commensurate pace.
2. Frozen solid can mean dehydration, as roots cannot take up frozen water. Though I do let mine freeze solid for short periods.
3. Sometimes trees die.
4. Take it from those of us who do have years of personal experience with nishiki...they can live perfectly healthy, long lives on bonsai benches.
5. They become a novelty at some point; if you plan to invest later...make it count. I went overboard 6-7 years ago and acquired 6 different cultivars. I'd only miss this one:
 

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Catalyst05

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Here are a few lessons to consider:
1. Yes, they grow slower than standard JBP, so they must be treated with a commensurate pace.
2. Frozen solid can mean dehydration, as roots cannot take up frozen water. Though I do let mine freeze solid for short periods.
3. Sometimes trees die.
4. Take it from those of us who do have years of personal experience with nishiki...they can live perfectly healthy, long lives on bonsai benches.
5. They become a novelty at some point; if you plan to invest later...make it count. I went overboard 6-7 years ago and acquired 6 different cultivars. I'd only miss this one:

I'm concerned about dehydration of my regular Black Pines (and other trees?) now, in this particularly harsh weather. Should I be concerned about making sure they are only kept below freezing for short periods as well?

As you can tell, this is fairly surprising information to learn, and very useful. None of the bonsai books/internet/people I've talked to about wintering, including some of my own experiences (not quite as extensive as some on this forum), have mentioned anything about dehydration or other wintering problems (aside from keeping out of direct sun and wind for transpiration). Maybe someone could elaborate on some rules of thumb or experiences for how long Japanese Black Pine can stay frozen, how to reduce transpiration when you don't have a greenhouse and your plants are frozen, or any other best practices for overwintering that might be useful.
 

Neli

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Do yo know what soil it is in? Try not to over water it...keep it on the dry side.
 
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I'd like to give you some hope, it doesn't look all that terrible to me. Give your normal routine and hope for the best in the spring. Some trees just don't look good until they've had a shower and a cup of coffee.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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I'm concerned about dehydration of my regular Black Pines (and other trees?) now, in this particularly harsh weather. Should I be concerned about making sure they are only kept below freezing for short periods as well?

Study plant physiology and horticultural processes; they're very important in bonsai, and you'll just need to do your homework to be successful.

On frozen soil, the key is to keep frozen trees out of strong sunlight. When the roots are frozen, and the needles are exposed to sunlight, the tree will transpire. The problem is that the tree will be unable to replace that lost moisture with frozen roots. The end result is the same as if the soil dried out.

If they're out of the sunshine and frozen, the moisture loss through transpiration is slowed down enough that the roots can keep up. With deciduous trees, almost all transpiration occurs through the leaves...and without leaves, the roots are not forced to replace much moisture loss through the rest of the tree.
 
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