Defoliating a Live Oak...now too late?

[fraser67]

Hey there...
I've done some reading and read a number of threads here on BN and can't quite decipher if defoliating the above live oak now (repotted very early this year) is a good idea?? I'd like to see some more ramification taking place. I bought the tree from Kimura Bonsai Nursery in Northridge last year... very healthy. Should I wait till next season? Or can I do half the tree at a time, now?
Thanks for your help.
Best,
Jonathan

 

[0soyoung]

First, let me say that defoliation is a ramification strategy. Your tree doesn't look to be developed to the point that you would want to start ramifying it. But, I understand, there is a need to know as in I want to do it to see what it does.

At the risk of being out in the weeds, let me guess that all live oaks are similar to cork oak in that new leaves emerge in spring and last year's leaves remain until fall. New leaves grow from the axils of the old leaves (i.e., where the petiole of last year's leaf joins the stem).

I don' think just removing last year's leaves will accomplish much. I think one ought wait until the new leaves have emerged and hardened. So, it is probably not too late - it is most likely too early. Either way, you can try defoliating a branch or two instead of the whole tree (gravest risk is that you kill a couple of branches instead of the whole tree) - branches are largely autonomous.

Alternatively, ask over at IBC. Russel Coker is over there and is big on live oak bonsai.

 

[milehigh_7]

That soil looks pretty wet I would be careful you don't get crown rot.

Let's start by asking what do you want to achieve with this tree? What style do you envision? From the wires you have on there it looks like you have wired them straight.

It also looks like some reverse taper down at the bottom. Am I seeing that right? In all honesty the tree does not look overly healthy right now.

BTW do you know the exact species? Maybe Paul will chime in he knows his stuff on oaks.

 

[fraser67]

First, let me say that defoliation is a ramification strategy. Your tree doesn't look to be developed to the point that you would want to start ramifying it. But, I understand, there is a need to know as in I want to do it to see what it does.

At the risk of being out in the weeds, let me guess that all live oaks are similar to cork oak in that new leaves emerge in spring and last year's leaves remain until fall. New leaves grow from the axils of the old leaves (i.e., where the petiole of last year's leaf joins the stem).

I don' think just removing last year's leaves will accomplish much. I think one ought wait until the new leaves have emerged and hardened. So, it is probably not too late - it is most likely too early. Either way, you can try defoliating a branch or two instead of the whole tree (gravest risk is that you kill a couple of branches instead of the whole tree) - branches are largely autonomous.

Alternatively, ask over at IBC. Russel Coker is over there and is big on live oak bonsai.

Thanks for your reply...As far as I know, both the cork and live oaks are evergreens. I did find an answer to my question...according to Eric Schrader, Bonsai Society San Francisco, defoliate in August, September. And yes, I realize she's not ready for that kind of development, but I would like to see if it generates some new growth closer to the trunk.
Thanks again.
J

 

[milehigh_7]

...I would like to see if it generates some new growth closer to the trunk.
Thanks again.
J

You can get this by cutting back to the first pair of leaves. All of mine back bud like crazy. It looks like yours needs that anyhow so you can get some bends in those branches.

 

[fraser67]

That soil looks pretty wet I would be careful you don't get crown rot.

Let's start by asking what do you want to achieve with this tree? What style do you envision? From the wires you have on there it looks like you have wired them straight.

It also looks like some reverse taper down at the bottom. Am I seeing that right? In all honesty the tree does not look overly healthy right now.

BTW do you know the exact species? Maybe Paul will chime in he knows his stuff on oaks.

This is a california live oak (Quercus Agrifolia). This photo was taken back in early Feb. We had just had quite a bit of rain (believe it or not)
I'm thinking formal upright based on what the tree is doing right now.
No, the branch isn't wired straight.
There is a slight bulge where the bark has developed about an inch above the soil line. I'm thinking the lowest branch may be the culprit, but hesitate to remove at this point.
The tree is pushing new growth at the end of branches...appears to be healthy...

 

[PaulH]

I can't say I recognize the species from your photo. Did Bob tell you what it is?
Regarding defoliation.. I always defoliate live oaks when I repot. Of course you should only do this with healthy trees. I also sometimes defoliate in June on very healthy trees.
It is a common misconception that live oaks are evergreen. I would call them semi - deciduous. They usually keep green leaves until new spring growth replaces old leaves. Early defoliation seems to hasten this process. Trees in this category that I work with are Quercus agrifolia, Quercus wislizeni, Quercus suber, Quercus chrysolepsis, Quercus tomentella, Quercus durata, and Quercus ilex. All react similarly to defoliation.
Your tree is very young and doesn't look strong enough yet for defoliation. It really doesn't look ready for a bonsai pot yet. I would put it in the ground or a growing box to develop it a little more before trying techniques like defoliation.

 

[milehigh_7]

Glad you jumped in Paul. Your advice is exactly what I was thinking. I use big pond baskets for the stage that this one looks to be in.

 

[fraser67]

Your tree is very young and doesn't look strong enough yet for defoliation. It really doesn't look ready for a bonsai pot yet. I would put it in the ground or a growing box to develop it a little more before trying techniques like defoliation.

I'm happy to put her in a grow box. Could I slip the tree in now? I read that live oaks like a little more organic soil...looks like you don't at all?? In fact, I'm now using same mix as you...however, when I repotted this tree in late January, I added about 20% organic (bark mulch).
BTW...I didn't meet Bob, but the guy who helped said it was a California live oak. They have (as you probably know), quite a few of them at the nursery.
Thanks for your time...

 

[jk_lewis]

A few comments on other comments.

Pruning is more likely to push growth in toward the trunk than defoliation.

Russell C. likes the live oak SHAPE, but doesn't usually work with oaks themselves. And the oaks he patterns his trees over are vastly different than the California oaks.

Have you ever seen a California live oak that is shaped like a pine tree????? If this were mine, I would top it immediately to start the wide umbrella shape that is more typical of an oak.

 

[Poink88]

I agree with jkl.

If this is mine, I would be very tempted to chop the trunk down to the lowest branch and use that as the new trunk just because the trunk is super straight and don't have any character right now. But that is just me.

My small live oak that was pruned late winter sprouted couple of months ago and I already pruned those and budding now on the chopped (new) branches. I also agree that they are semi-deciduous. Here in Austin, TX, they drop most of their leaves (some totally) before the new leaves come out.

 

[bonsaibp]

This is a california live oak (Quercus Agrifolia). This photo was taken back in early Feb. We had just had quite a bit of rain (believe it or not)
I'm thinking formal upright based on what the tree is doing right now.
No, the branch isn't wired straight.
There is a slight bulge where the bark has developed about an inch above the soil line. I'm thinking the lowest branch may be the culprit, but hesitate to remove at this point.
The tree is pushing new growth at the end of branches...appears to be healthy...

Actually it looks like it's a Southern Live Oak- Q.virginiana. It may be agrifolia but the leaves seem a little large, unless its in the shade. Jorge knows the difference though so it may be agrifolia you could bring it by if you get the chance and I'll tell you for sure.
You can slip it into a growbox now just don't mess with the roots to much. They bud back on old wood after a hard pruning so if you want growth closer to the trunk cut it back, though that will slow down the process of growing it out. They don't like wet feet so watch out for that. Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[fraser67]

Actually it looks like it's a Southern Live Oak- Q.virginiana. It may be agrifolia but the leaves seem a little large, unless its in the shade. Jorge knows the difference though so it may be agrifolia you could bring it by if you get the chance and I'll tell you for sure.
You can slip it into a growbox now just don't mess with the roots to much. They bud back on old wood after a hard pruning so if you want growth closer to the trunk cut it back, though that will slow down the process of growing it out. They don't like wet feet so watch out for that. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks Bob, for your comments. I will bring it by.
I look forward to meeting you.
Jonathan