Delving My Hands Into a New Art

[Intricate Simplicity]

Hey Everyone

I recently went to the Museum of Science and Industry and decided to buy three things: a Newton's cradle, Venus fly trap and Bonsai kit. I always thought it was an interesting art, but wasn't aware of the plethora of techniques, intricasies and history behind it.

I read up quite a bit on the art, though I'm sure I only scratched the surface. The kit contained eight Jack Pine seeds, only one of which survived. From what I read, this tree is used to an arid and windy environment and is quite an outdoor plant.

What I also ended up doing was buying a 'pre-bonsai' from New England Bonsai (http://www.nebonsai.com/mm5/merchan...de=NEBG&Product_Code=PRE_JU&Category_Code=PRE). I want to practice the art on an older tree so my younger one can be picture perfect in a few years haha. I was curious, however, about training. I know I'm supposed to wait a while before doing any but I was wondering if I should trim branches that don't completely match the design I'm going for.

Any and all feedback would be very much appreciated. Regards

 

[rockm]

Throw the kit out. They're useless. Plant the surviving seedling in your yard. Forget about it for a couple of decades...It won't be worth working with for at least that long.

Do more research. If you have the juniper you bought at NE bonsai gardens inside, put it outside and leave it there. Fall isn't the best time to start working on a tree. Winter is ahead in a few short months. Any foliage, growth etc. you cut off now will weaken the plant going into a stressful period. Yes, the tree should be outside all winter, on the ground in a place that drains preferably heeled into a mulch pile.

 

[Intricate Simplicity]

Throw the kit out. They're useless. Plant the surviving seedling in your yard. Forget about it for a couple of decades...It won't be worth working with for at least that long.

Do more research. If you have the juniper you bought at NE bonsai gardens inside, put it outside and leave it there. Fall isn't the best time to start working on a tree. Winter is ahead in a few short months. Any foliage, growth etc. you cut off now will weaken the plant going into a stressful period. Yes, the tree should be outside all winter, on the ground in a place that drains preferably heeled into a mulch pile.

There wasn't much in the kit to begin with (just the pot, peat, seeds and 'shears' which are basically cheap scissors), so I just hadn't gotten to throwing it out. Okay, so I won't trim it or anything; do I really need to wait 20 years, though? I wouldn't want it more than 8-12 inches tall in the end, anyways. I live in an apartment, so would it be alright if I just put it in a far oversized pot instead (outside)?

Thanks for the advice!

 

[mat]

Welcome I.S. (That's sort of a creepy avatar.)

Rockm's advice is good (as usual). As he hints at with the 20 years reference, growing pine from seed probably isn't the best way to get started with the hobby. Picking up the pre-bonsai is a much better idea. Plants like those can be worked on every year - even right away if the season is right. Unfortunately, this isn't the time of year for Juniper work.

You don't want to go too big or too small on the pot. Leaving it in the pot that it came in may be best for now. I would recommend paying attention to the watering and keeping it alive. Sounds boring, but it's the first critical step everyone must take. There's lots of good information here. Look around, and don't be afraid to ask questions.

 

[Intricate Simplicity]

Welcome I.S. (That's sort of a creepy avatar.)

Rockm's advice is good (as usual). As he hints at with the 20 years reference, growing pine from seed probably isn't the best way to get started with the hobby. Picking up the pre-bonsai is a much better idea. Plants like those can be worked on every year - even right away if the season is right. Unfortunately, this isn't the time of year for Juniper work.

You don't want to go too big or too small on the pot. Leaving it in the pot that it came in may be best for now. I would recommend paying attention to the watering and keeping it alive. Sounds boring, but it's the first critical step everyone must take. There's lots of good information here. Look around, and don't be afraid to ask questions.

Well I'm a naturally patient person, so I guess I can wait a bit to start. Reading up on all the techniques and keeping em alive should be enough for now. By the way, did I happen to join the forum at a time of crisis or does this not happen regularly? I've seen a few good forums die due to a lack of member maturity or from communities getting along like oil and water.

Thanks for the help!

Oh and the avatar is a from a (obviously) photoshopped meme. Don't worry, though, I'm not one of those guys. And yeah, its definitely creepy haha.

 

[mat]

Oh, that's photoshopped? I'm okay with odd avatars or even oddness in general, for what that's worth. As for the current Bnut drama - this isn't normal, though not totally out of character either. I don't see it bringing down the whole ship, though I suppose you never know. I'll stop short of adding my opinion here, no need to drag that mess into your thread. I will say that there are plenty of people here willing to help with just about any bonsai related question you can throw at them. Enter non-bonsai discussions at your own risk (I try to avoid them here).

 

[rockm]

"I wouldn't want it more than 8-12 inches tall in the end, anyways. I live in an apartment, so would it be alright if I just put it in a far oversized pot instead (outside"

Height has NOTHING to do with turning a tree into a bonsai. Most bonsai with trunk diameters over an inch have been chopped down from trees that could be as high as 20 feet.

Growing a tree out in the ground is about developing the first 6-to-12 inches of what will be the bonsai's trunk. For bonsai, it ALL about the last third of the trunk. Bigger trunks with larger DIAMETER take a wile to develop. Height is always negotiable and can be removed as needed--I've chopped down 25-30 foot trees to eight inches, regrown the top to a final height of 15 - 20 inches.

Until you grasp that process, bonsai can be a mystery of sorts.

So in the short answer to the question if 20 years is enough, is "it depends" do you want a tree that has a spindly 1/2" DIAMETER trunk or a more powerful, 8 or 9 inch diameter? Attaining that kind of diameter on the lower portion of the trunk could take more than 20 years. Some older collected pines have less than 6" trunks, but are hundreds of years old...

 

[Intricate Simplicity]

Oh, that's photoshopped? I'm okay with odd avatars or even oddness in general, for what that's worth. As for the current Bnut drama - this isn't normal, though not totally out of character either. I don't see it bringing down the whole ship, though I suppose you never know. I'll stop short of adding my opinion here, no need to drag that mess into your thread. I will say that there are plenty of people here willing to help with just about any bonsai related question you can throw at them. Enter non-bonsai discussions at your own risk (I try to avoid them here).

Alright thanks for the tip; yeah I'm not a big fan of drama haha.

"I wouldn't want it more than 8-12 inches tall in the end, anyways. I live in an apartment, so would it be alright if I just put it in a far oversized pot instead (outside"

Height has NOTHING to do with turning a tree into a bonsai. Most bonsai with trunk diameters over an inch have been chopped down from trees that could be as high as 20 feet.

Growing a tree out in the ground is about developing the first 6-to-12 inches of what will be the bonsai's trunk. For bonsai, it ALL about the last third of the trunk. Bigger trunks with larger DIAMETER take a wile to develop. Height is always negotiable and can be removed as needed--I've chopped down 25-30 foot trees to eight inches, regrown the top to a final height of 15 - 20inches.

Until you grasp that process, bonsai can be a mystery of sorts.

So in the short answer to the question if 20 years is enough, is "it depends" do you want a tree that has a spindly 1/2" DIAMETER trunk or a more powerful, 8 or 9 inch diameter? Attaining that kind of diameter on the ower portion of the trunk could take more than 20 years. Some older collected pines have less than 6" trunks, but are hundreds of years old...

Wow, I never thought of that. I always figured that they were a years old but didnt consider that they could be trained from fully-formed trees! I'll definitely keep note of that. I guess the juniper will get some harsh treatment from my lack of experience. Thanks a lot, I'm learning so much!

I was wondering: how difficult is it to grow from collecting, say, a cutting from a tree? That's called yamadori, right?

 

[rockm]

Cuttings are cuttings. Same as seedlings for the most part.

The Japanese term "yamadori" generally means larger collected trees in the U.S. Literally it means "from the mountain" in Japanese, but in the west it is a catchall term for trees dug anywhere from swamps, mountains, front yards, abandon lots, trash heaps, wherever a decent tree with a nice trunk can be found. BTW, the best yamadori don't have to come from pristine mountain tops, but from more common places. Dumps roadside ditches, front yards, etc. produce outstanding candidates also.

Those collected trees are rarely "fully formed" bonsai -- they have to be developed into bonsai (through topping, hard pruning etc.) to be made into bonsai. The image in Karate Kid with the picturesque, perfectly-formed "natural" juniper growing in a seclued spot by the sea is a load of crap. Doesn't happen that way.

Little bonsai for the most part, DON'T "grow up" into big bonsai. Big bonsai are cut down from larger stock--as are many smaller bonsai. The repeated reduction process harnesses the plant's naturaly ability to regerate itself...trees lose limbs, good portions of their trunks, etc. all the time in nature. They have developed the ability to keep on growing in spite of those damages...

 

[Intricate Simplicity]

Thanks for that clarification. I was looking at Walter Pall's bonsai gallery and noticed some trees were hundreds of years old. I'll keep am eye out for a good potential bonsai in the future. I want to get some substrate, fertilizer and pots first, though. On a side note, whoever stole those bonsai are idiots. I appreciate the beauty of those bonsai, but isn't it more satisfying to have a bonsai you personally trained as opposed to some else's masterpiece? They're different from paintings or sculptures in that respect.