Deshojo air layer advice

[jcasalva]

Hello everyone,

First post from me, although I've been lurker for a couple years now. I acquired this deshojo earlier this year (consistent with my ongoing mission to own all the deshojos in the world), and wanted to get some advice about potential air layer locations from different eyes. I posted a few pics of the tree from all four sides, as well as another pic of the front with what I am currently thinking for a potential air layer location (at red) and chop at yellow, with the new leader for the bottom half just at the branch to the right of yellow.

I did a fair amount of winter pruning last month, and my current plan is to do a full repot out of that soil into a pond basket this spring, let it strengthen up more, then in late spring of 2022 do the proposed layer. Alternatively, I could just leave it as is, but there is a pretty large scar in the pic of the back of the tree, and the scar has caused some minor-moderate reverse taper in that section of the trunk. Not as visible in the front pic, but I thought an air layer of the top to make a smaller triple trunk design would be more interesting than leaving it as is, then just use a new starter for the bottom half. Thanks for any help or suggestions!

 

[63pmp]

I would do two layers, each fork above the scar. And I agree with plans for the bottom section of the tree.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

Layering at the scar seems like a bad idea...I believe you'll have better results going above the fork

 

[jcasalva]

I would do two layers, each fork above the scar. And I agree with plans for the bottom section of the tree.

thanks for the reply! Would you do both air layers at the same time?

 

[jcasalva]

Layering at the scar seems like a bad idea...I believe you'll have better results going above the fork

thanks for the reply! bad because the layer has less of a chance of sticking if it's done over a scar?

 

[63pmp]

thanks for the reply! Would you do both air layers at the same time?

Yes, Looks like there is enough room. Regarding layering just above the scar, I would be worried that the layer may not produce roots above that section. Technically it shouldn't matter as it is hormones from above which stimulate root development, but trees have a away of not behaving as they should

 

[leatherback]

I am not sure where you are located. But have you considered leaving it ins the substrate, do the layer this spring, and repot late-summer instead? I would venture a guess it is overall faster. Gets you starting 2022 with 3 of all-deshojo-in-the-world.

 

[sorce]

I'd go one down on the keeper part, that straight new section above the yellow wouldn't heal without reverse taper, and it'll look kinda bad straight.

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

Hi,
I suppose all of the above information sounds plausible about the air-layers. Unfortunately Deshojo have a small habit of being a bit hit and miss with air-layers. Worth trying of course, but you might not have success, just saying.
Tagging @0soyoung into this discussion, as he has his theories too.
Charles

 

[jcasalva]

I am not sure where you are located. But have you considered leaving it ins the substrate, do the layer this spring, and repot late-summer instead? I would venture a guess it is overall faster. Gets you starting 2022 with 3 of all-deshojo-in-the-world.

Thanks for the reply! I'm always worried to do any repot/rootwork after the spring window--just so I understand, you're recommending doing the air layer this spring, then (ideally) removing the two layers into their own pots, and also doing rootwork and repotting the bottom half late summer? Or rather leave the bottom half, and just detach the two layers this summer. I've done a couple layers in the past and both times I've left them on a full growing season before cutting them off--do you think spring into summer is enough time? Thanks again!

 

[jcasalva]

I'd go one down on the keeper part, that straight new section above the yellow wouldn't heal without reverse taper, and it'll look kinda bad straight.

Welcome to Crazy!

Sorce

I see! yea maybe making the one lower branch the newn leader and just remove the scar entirely. That actually sounds like a better plan for the bottom half. Thank you!

 

[jcasalva]

Hi,
I suppose all of the above information sounds plausible about the air-layers. Unfortunately Deshojo have a small habit of being a bit hit and miss with air-layers. Worth trying of course, but you might not have success, just saying.
Tagging @0soyoung into this discussion, as he has his theories too.
Charles

Thank for the reply! Yea worse case scenario I keep the bottom half and discard the failed top half. One lesson I've had trouble learning is there are always more trees, so I'm not stressed about making mistakes here. Not sure what to do with this guy otherwise, that scar is huge and while i have no interest in making this a display tree, it still bothers me to see that wound like that

 

[SeanS]

Thanks for the reply! I'm always worried to do any repot/rootwork after the spring window--just so I understand, you're recommending doing the air layer this spring, then (ideally) removing the two layers into their own pots, and also doing rootwork and repotting the bottom half late summer? Or rather leave the bottom half, and just detach the two layers this summer. I've done a couple layers in the past and both times I've left them on a full growing season before cutting them off--do you think spring into summer is enough time? Thanks again!

All the layers I’ve done this season (my first ever layers) were only on for 9 weeks, late spring to early summer.

 

[0soyoung]

Hi,
I suppose all of the above information sounds plausible about the air-layers. Unfortunately Deshojo have a small habit of being a bit hit and miss with air-layers. Worth trying of course, but you might not have success, just saying.
Tagging @0soyoung into this discussion, as he has his theories too.
Charles

Layers occur because cambium cells get morphed into being root initials that then grow. There are no cambium cells in that wound, so no roots can possibly emanate from it. The remaining tissue around the stem could make roots though.

The driver of adventitious rooting is an accumulation of auxin and a supply of carbohydrates. Multiple layers are possible as long as each has its own branch(es) full of foliage. In other words, one could make layers of several individual branches of one tree. One can also make several layers along the length one stem (trunk) as long as there is a branch with foliage between every girdle/tourniquet.

Ground layering, as we call it in bonsai, is girdling a trunk at or near ground level, which leaves no foliage to feed the roots. They then do what roots do, living entirely on stored carbohydrate. In my experience, these will run out in 12 to 18 months time at which point the entire tree will abruptly collapse (desiccate). Further, one can repot/root-prune and affect layers more or less simultaneously, as long as it is assured that there is foliage to supply auxin to stimulate and carbohydrates to fuel root growth.


I have not had any trouble generating adventitious roots on shin deshojo. As I outlined in the thread "What's the Deal with A.P. 'shin deshojo Layers?'", the problems I had arose because of my layering horizontal branches and subsequent insistence that these become (more or less) vertical trunks. There is little chance of this occurring with the subject tree of this specific thread.

 

[jcasalva]

Layers occur because cambium cells get morphed into being root initials that then grow. There are no cambium cells in that wound, so no roots can possibly emanate from it. The remaining tissue around the stem could make roots though.

The driver of adventitious rooting is an accumulation of auxin and a supply of carbohydrates. Multiple layers are possible as long as each has its own branch(es) full of foliage. In other words, one could make layers of several individual branches of one tree. One can also make several layers along the length one stem (trunk) as long as there is a branch with foliage between every girdle/tourniquet.

Ground layering, as we call it in bonsai, is girdling a trunk at or near ground level, which leaves no foliage to feed the roots. They then do what roots do, living entirely on stored carbohydrate. In my experience, these will run out in 12 to 18 months time at which point the entire tree will abruptly collapse (desiccate). Further, one can repot/root-prune and affect layers more or less simultaneously, as long as it is assured that there is foliage to supply auxin to stimulate and carbohydrates to fuel root growth.


I have not had any trouble generating adventitious roots on shin deshojo. As I outlined in the thread "What's the Deal with A.P. 'shin deshojo Layers?'", the problems I had arose because of my layering horizontal branches and subsequent insistence that these become (more or less) vertical trunks. There is little chance of this occurring with the subject tree of this specific thread.

Thanks for the detailed response! It regards to the simultaneous repot/layer portion of your reply, if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying it would ok to do a repot/root work this spring, as well as starting the two layers in late spring this same year?

 

[leatherback]

Unfortunately Deshojo have a small habit of being a bit hit and miss with air-layers

I have layered two here. They are a bit slow, but both of them rooted

Thanks for the reply! I'm always worried to do any repot/rootwork after the spring window--just so I understand, you're recommending doing the air layer this spring, then (ideally) removing the two layers into their own pots, and also doing rootwork and repotting the bottom half late summer? Or rather leave the bottom half, and just detach the two layers this summer. I've done a couple layers in the past and both times I've left them on a full growing season before cutting them off--do you think spring into summer is enough time? Thanks again!

pretty much. I would start to layer them as the buds are popping. As you get roots, you separate and plant up, assuming it is at least some 8 weeks before your first frost date.

I would in my climate then consider a repot late summer. Or just wait till spring 2022 if you do not have the climate for a late summer repot.

 

[KiwiPlantGuy]

I have layered two here. They are a bit slow, but both of them rooted

pretty much. I would start to layer them as the buds are popping. As you get roots, you separate and plant up, assuming it is at least some 8 weeks before your first frost date.

I would in my climate then consider a repot late summer. Or just wait till spring 2022 if you do not have the climate for a late summer repot.

Yep, I will take note that this cultivar can root from air layers as well as cuttings.
My non-scientific study had 3 layers on a big nursery bush and all of them collapsed, failed to push roots, and when separated the whole stem was black etc. I blamed myself but maybe verticillium could have been in the stock plant also.