deshojo maple

barrosinc

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Is this a nocturnal species of maple? ?. Looking good!
hahahah it's the time of the day nobody notices I am looking at my plants.



I'd ground layer as soon as I can before moving forward.
I have been wondering if you should do this as the last step before doing ramification to get as much growth from the larger root system.
 

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hahahah it's the time of the day nobody notices I am looking at my plants.




I have been wondering if you should do this as the last step before doing ramification to get as much growth from the larger root system.
I think the challenge is to maintain all the finer branching. All that holds you back from being able to cut back roots hard for nebari development. It's just my thought. I have been wondering about this problem on a kiyohime that I've not separated from rootstock yet.
 

0soyoung

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I'd ground layer as soon as I can before moving forward.
I agree. It is the riskiest step in the development plan - tree could wind up dead (no foliage to feed the original roots). Best get that out of the way sooner rather than later.
 

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I agree. It is the riskiest step in the development plan - tree could wind up dead (no foliage to feed the original roots). Best get that out of the way sooner rather than later.
Would it be safer to work with the current root system and root graft instead then?
I was under the impression a groundlayer was relatively safe.. or at least safer then an airlayer?

edit: I misread, I tough with ground layer you ment what Jerry showed (completely new roots) instead of cutting the current ones/adding grafts
 

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Would it be safer to work with the current root system and root graft instead then?
yes but it would take longer.
I was under the impression a groundlayer was relatively safe.. or at least safer then an airlayer?
They are the same thing, just one is above ground, up in the air. The other is under ground. Either way we stop the flow of auxin and food (photosynthates produced in the leaves) at the point where we want to generate new roots. If there is no foliage below this point, the roots only live on stored carbohydrates - when they run out, the roots die and the entire tree dies with them. With a ground layer there is no foliage below (by definition), so if there are problems generating layer roots, one can lose the entire tree.
 
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@0soyoung have you ever tried air/ground layering a tree by cutting 3/4 of the way around the trunk (instead of the full circumference) in order to leave 25% of the circumference so that at least some of the nutrients etc. make it down to the roots?

Would the tree form roots from the other 75% that has been cut, or simply force nutrient down through the remaining 25%? Or would it just suffer and partially die?

I'm wondering if this might be a good way to prevent complete loss (in the event where we are working with a tree that is more precious to us)

Thank you!
D
 

barrosinc

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Derek, I have seen that in drawings only from Peter Adams book "Japanese Maples".
 
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Derek, I have seen that in drawings only from Peter Adams book "Japanese Maples".
You mean when he makes the raft on p 50-51?

Couldn't find anything else in the book
 

0soyoung

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@derek7745, the slightest bit of bridging causes my maple layers to fail. We had a discussion about vertical cuts and painting IBA in PEG on them a while back, here, on BNut. I tried it last year on two 'hard to root' cultivars (a.p. 'Higasaysma' and 'Hiname Nishiki') and an easily rooted a. Shirasawanum to no avail.
 
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@derek7745, the slightest bit of bridging causes my maple layers to fail. We had a discussion about vertical cuts and painting IBA in PEG on them a while back, here, on BNut. I tried it last year on two 'hard to root' cultivars (a.p. 'Higasaysma' and 'Hiname Nishiki') and an easily rooted a. Shirasawanum to no avail.
Thanks, I really appreciate your warning! :)

So the Raft concept in Peter Adams' book only really works because the trees had been laid horizontal ?

Photo taken from web
 

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barrosinc

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I agree. It is the riskiest step in the development plan - tree could wind up dead (no foliage to feed the original roots). Best get that out of the way sooner rather than later.
The thing is I don't want to ground layer if I these roots are going to get thick again because I need more trunk development and healing.
 
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I think so.
Wow that's fascinating! Going to look into this further.

I guess gravity acting on fluids shouldn't be this surprising to me.

Thank you
D
 

0soyoung

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The thing is I don't want to ground layer if I these roots are going to get thick again because I need more trunk development and healing.
One can remedy thick/heavy roots by pruning them hard when repotting the tree - the more smaller roots you get elsewhere, the harder you can prune back the 'big heavies'.

A thing to keep in mind is that roots will grow most strongly below the branches with the most foliage. Suppose you cut all the branches of one side of the tree. The roots on that side will become weaker over time. The others, on the side with branches, will get stronger. This tendency can be combatted, though, by root pruning.

I would only be thinking 'ground layer' if the roots aren't on the plane of the final planting surface. Unless your tree is perfectly symmetric around the trunk, it is inevitable that some roots are going to get bigger than others over time.
 

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Wow that's fascinating! Going to look into this further.

I guess gravity acting on fluids shouldn't be this surprising to me.
Auxin is transported from the buds and leaves in the phloem and in the cambium. It is just stuff in the pipes with no biological effect in the phloem. Only the auxin being handed of from one cell to the next in the bucket brigade of Polar Auxin Tree Transport matters. It is accomplished by special proteins in the cambium cell membranes. Gravitropism moves these proteins, changing the direction of the PAT.

IOW, there's a bit more to it than fluid flow, but it is much like it in many ways.
 

barrosinc

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Thanks, I really appreciate your warning! :)

So the Raft concept in Peter Adams' book only really works because the trees had been laid horizontal ?

Photo taken from web
Sorry... you were right.
It was in another Peter Adams' book.

20180606_090602.jpg
 

barrosinc

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Thanks m5!
I don't have any grafting pins and pushpins have never really worked for me. The ziptie doesn't touch the trunk (yet), i put polystyrene to cushion the pushing force.

If needed i will change the ziptie.

This is the first time i work the roots since i received it.

20180805_232859.jpg20180805_232203.jpg20180805_223232.jpg20180805_221818.jpg20180820_194613.jpg
 
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