Developing compact "scale" foliage

You are for the most part correct. However there are those today who would for one reason or another be critical of anyone desiring to keep a Procumbens in juvenile foliage. My preference is: I like the juvenile foliage and it is so easy to keep it that way why not cultivate it that way? But---that's just my opinion. Just because you can churn cream into butter does not mean there is no use for cream?

In the quest to make credible and beautiful bonsai we consistently make trees do things they may or may not do naturally. Things like producing compact foliage pads, small leaves and small needles with short internodes. We make upright designs from trees that in nature would lay on the ground, we make tall tree images out of trees that would in nature be bushes so on an so forth. The entire art of bonsai is for lack of a better term surrealistic in nature. We are trying to create the images of age and size and encounters with weather in little trees that, in many cases, have no genetic link to what they mimic. Understanding this I find it difficult to suggest that somehow those of us who prefer juvenile foliage on some trees are doing it wrong. As long as you, me, or the Man-in-the-Moon understand that they have a choice, that choice should not be called into doubt or criticism. Thus endith the rant.

But to expect a procumbens to shoot out scale foliage...your taking on an uphill battle so to speak. It can be done...is what your technically saying. :confused: Pondering why one would wish to alter the foliage on it...except to tout they accomplished it. (No offense to ones who have accomplished it) When other options for similar foliage is out there. Or...is the scale more dwarfed in that variety being it is considered a dwarf?
 
But to expect a procumbens to shoot out scale foliage...your taking on an uphill battle so to speak. It can be done...is what your technically saying. :confused: Pondering why one would wish to alter the foliage on it...except to tout they accomplished it. (No offense to ones who have accomplished it) When other options for similar foliage is out there. Or...is the scale more dwarfed in that variety being it is considered a dwarf?

I think we are saying the same thing. However: Your words, Or...is the scale more dwarfed in that variety being it is considered a dwarf? I have seen the mature foliage on Procumbens and I did not notice it being significantly smaller than Shimpaku or I would have considered the value in cultivating adult foliage exclusively in this variety. Just because something is hyped as being dwarf does not mean everything about it is small.

After thinking about this stuff for a while since its coming up as a subject I can remember my thoughts about the adult foliage on Procumbens and San Jose as being coarse and long lacking ramification and a tendency toward compact growth. That does not mean it is that way on every example of the species.
 
Although pruning can be a factor. Stress to the roots or a lot of root pruning will create juvenile foliage. Also, age and variety are major factors. You can't really take small, young junipers and expect much in the way of scale foliage. Thomas J has amazing procumbens all with mature foliage. However, from his own words it took him 10 years to learn how to create it and let the tree grow into it. Once again, time is a factor. There is an upside to this though. If you are not willing to wait 10 years. Well kept and managed growth can create the look of beautiful foliage pads and a tight image.

Basically, if you have a tree and it has all young foliage and you are going to try to convert the whole tree. It will be a long process that requires patience and skill. However, if you work with what you have (juvenile foliage), still using proper techniques, you can still create very beautiful bonsai.

Rob
 
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Um I hate to ask such a question but, since I'm new at this still, can some post pictures or explain what "scale" foliage is?
 
Um I hate to ask such a question but, since I'm new at this still, can some post pictures or explain what "scale" foliage is?

Here is a pic. The needle or "juvenile" foliage is on the left. The scale or "mature" foliage is on the right. The scale foliage is considered more attractive and easier to work with.

Rob
 

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Learn to love the needle look because by time you got scale it's time to prune. Graft on shimpaku for scale look if its what u want the plant to have.
 
Just a thought on procumbens....look at the cover of the latest Bonsai Focus
 
Pardon the thread resurrection, but anyone have a pic of procumbens with scale?
 
Pardon the thread resurrection, but anyone have a pic of procumbens with scale?

I will take some today, however, it has been my experience that the scale foliage evevtually opens up and looks just like what some call juvenile foliage, except the needles are a little shorter.

John
 
Ok, @MrFancyPlants , (I always chuckle when I read that screen name) I took some pictures of my nana this evening, in between the downpours.

Scale foliage:

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Scale foliage opening up

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Comparison of the needles. Top is what is usually referred to as "juvenile" foliage, bottom is what is referred to as scale foliage that has opened up.

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I really don't know what all the fuss is about, it all ends up looking the same eventually. I have never seen a procumbus completely covered with "scale" foliage and I don't think they exist unless someone has gone to the trouble of grafting something else to it. They seem to naturally exist with needles.
 
Ok, @MrFancyPlants , (I always chuckle when I read that screen name) I took some pictures of my nana this evening, in between the downpours.

Scale foliage:

View attachment 199298

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Scale foliage opening up

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Comparison of the needles. Top is what is usually referred to as "juvenile" foliage, bottom is what is referred to as scale foliage that has opened up.

View attachment 199302

I really don't know what all the fuss is about, it all ends up looking the same eventually. I have never seen a procumbus completely covered with "scale" foliage and I don't think they exist unless someone has gone to the trouble of grafting something else to it. They seem to naturally exist with needles.
I have to agree do to a similar exposure to the tree. That of course does not mean the all scale foliage Procumbens is not possible, and having all juvenile growth is not unattractive, or an obscene goal.
 
I have to agree do to a similar exposure to the tree. That of course does not mean the all scale foliage Procumbens is not possible, and having all juvenile growth is not unattractive, or an obscene goal.

I hope someone posts a picture of one, it would be interesting to see. I don't think it is possible since, in my experience, the scale eventually turns to needle. Hats off to whomever can pull it off!

John
 
I have seen lots of them. When they get potbound, and have high humidity they will develop scale foliage.

When they get repotted, their roots grow. When the roots grow, the top grows faster. Which causes them to go to juvenile growth.
 
I have seen lots of them. When they get potbound, and have high humidity they will develop scale foliage.

When they get repotted, their roots grow. When the roots grow, the top grows faster. Which causes them to go to juvenile growth.

Picture or it did not happen. lol

Mine is extremely pot bound, it hasn't been potted in six years and I had to poke holes through the soil with a metal rod to get it to take water. I live in south Alabama, maybe five miles from Mobile bay, as the crow flies, the humidity is 5670+902589705885 %. I have a potter making me a pot for it so I will be repotting next spring and will probably be hitting you and others up for tips. All new growth on mine is scale, but after a couple of months, it opens up to needles.

I just don't think it is possible. They are used here in landscape plantings a lot, and even those that have been in the ground for years have needle foliage and scale for the new growth.
 
Scale, needle, whatever you want to call it this is what all my procumbens have on it and as you can see it's the whole tree and been this way for years.:)View attachment 199369View attachment 199370

Cool! I guess it is possible, nice tree. Do you ever get any of the other type foliage on it? Just curious.
 
Picture or it did not happen. lol

Mine is extremely pot bound, it hasn't been potted in six years and I had to poke holes through the soil with a metal rod to get it to take water. I live in south Alabama, maybe five miles from Mobile bay, as the crow flies, the humidity is 5670+902589705885 %. I have a potter making me a pot for it so I will be repotting next spring and will probably be hitting you and others up for tips. All new growth on mine is scale, but after a couple of months, it opens up to needles.

I just don't think it is possible. They are used here in landscape plantings a lot, and even those that have been in the ground for years have needle foliage and scale for the new growth.
Next time I go over to Plant City bonsai, I will take some pictures. They have HUNDREDS of them!

But once you repot them, they revert to needle. They are 30 years old, and rather potbound, and live in high humidity. They originally were grown in Florida.
 
Scale, needle, whatever you want to call it this is what all my procumbens have on it and as you can see it's the whole tree and been this way for years.:)View attachment 199369View attachment 199370
This doesnt look like procumbens scale foliage. At least the ones i get on mine

I will get some pictures and share here
 
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