Developing one side first?

[JesusFreak]

I chopped a drake elm awhile back and I thought I liked what I had. @Leo in N E Illinois has really been helping me with the development behind the scenes but I’m just wondering should I change what I have? I don’t like how the longer portion of the tree looks. Reverse taper and overall much taller than I prefer. But the keeper branches I chose were based on me keeping this structure. Now I’m perturbed. Should I chop it back and work on developing the lower side first. Then build the newly chopped side off of my keepers?

 

[fredman]

For me the most important "rule" in bonsai is...you build a tree from the bottom up. It really is the foundation of a tree.
So much so, that i've put all my efforts, up to now, into learning about roots, nebaris and trunks. I'm only now starting to get interested in developing techniques.
So....I can only comment on your tree's nebari, and I think it's in need of a ground layer to get a better root spread....and to shorten that trunk some.

 

[JesusFreak]

For me the most important "rule" in bonsai is...you build a tree from the bottom up. It really is the foundation of a tree.
So much so, that i've put all my efforts, up to now, into learning about roots, nebaris and trunks. I'm only now starting to get interested in developing techniques.
So....I can only comment on your tree's nebari, and I think it's in need of a ground layer to get a better root spread....and to shorten that trunk some.

Could I not just bury it in the spring and let the nebari develop that way?

 

[fredman]

Could I not just bury it in the spring and let the nebari develop that way?

Nah you can't mate. It'll just get worse. What you want is a nice even radial root spread. A ground layer will give best results. Elms layer very well. Believe me...you'll be very proud of yourself..and the tree, going forward

 

[Forsoothe!]

What does "develop the nebari" mean? If you mean taper of the lower trunk, see here. If you want to re-arrange the roots, that's a horse of a different color, and probably not possible for this one. If you want to graft roots, that's also much different. Ground layering is another pony. The OP roots I see are nice enough, but if you want different you need to specify so someone with experience in similar trees can offer help.

 

[JesusFreak]

What does "develop the nebari" mean? If you mean taper of the lower trunk, see here. If you want to re-arrange the roots, that's a horse of a different color, and probably not possible for this one. If you want to graft roots, that's also much different. Ground layering is another pony. The OP roots I see are nice enough, but if you want different you need to specify so someone with experience in similar trees can offer help.

I’m fine with the roots. But you see how the tallest part of the tree has an inverse taper to it? My question is can I reduce that side so that the overall height of the tree is reduced and it’s not long and leggy. I’m honestly just unsatisfied with that part of it and was needing an experts eye on what I should do

 

[Forsoothe!]

Are you speaking of these sections?

 

[Bonsai Nut]

A really important thing to keep in mind when pruning: many times a horizontal cut is not the best solution. All your major pruning cuts are horizontal, so it will take a long time for those scars to heal (if ever). I would recut the scars, angling the cut away from your new growth, and to the greatest extent possible, with the new scar facing the back of the tree. Use cut paste on all the exposed edges until they start to heal over.

 

[Forsoothe!]

While we're at it, one of the bones that sticks in my craw when people chop trees is these flat cuts that takes the new growth forever to cover. Supposedly, this is part of a grand plan to regrow the tree for a new design. 'Tater is not a design, and is not a start if the scars incurred take longer to cover than the life of the interest of the 'Tater Maker. Stubs are evidence of no plan whatsoever! If a plan were present at the time of abysmal mutilation then the butcher would have cut the branches down to at the very least a bud facing the front or a beneficial direction and tapered (as above said) the backside of the cut on the tree. No plan, no front, no understanding of where the back is so the cuts are wrong....


So the first order of business is to establish the front, then make the cuts.

 

[JesusFreak]

Yes I’m talking about the

Are you speaking of these sections?
Yes I am talking about these sections. It was before I got the tree so I guess I should have just cut below it. I’m a mame

 

[JesusFreak]

Like I said ...I’m a rookie. But I guess talking to people like that is just your thing. Anyhow...I appreciate the advice. When I chopped it originally there were no buds facing anywhere so how can one do that? I’m here to learn

 

[JesusFreak]

A really important thing to keep in mind when pruning: many times a horizontal cut is not the best solution. All your major pruning cuts are horizontal, so it will take a long time for those scars to heal (if ever). I would recut the scars, angling the cut away from your new growth, and to the greatest extent possible, with the new scar facing the back of the tree. Use cut paste on all the exposed edges until they start to heal over.

I made cuts at the time not knowing any of this. But now I see that the tree needs further help. So you’re suggesting chop everything again and make more angled cuts? What if I haven’t decided on the front of the tree.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Here's one ~plan~ (I can't see the third dimension so this speculative)...

If the best twig or bud is not pointed in a good direction, then cut to one above the desired height and wait for new buds/twigs to grow in the right place/angle and chop again later to the new, well positioned bud/twig. It is always better to chop to a twig than to a bud.

 

[JesusFreak]

Well honestly I like everything about the tree except for the right lumps that you circled above. @Leo in N E Illinois and I kinda saw an informal broom style which I still desire. Just don’t know what to do about the ugly right side

 

[Bonsai Nut]

I made cuts at the time not knowing any of this. But now I see that the tree needs further help. So you’re suggesting chop everything again and make more angled cuts? What if I haven’t decided on the front of the tree.

It's all good - I am just offering the advice to get you to look at this tree (and future trees) in a different light. Sometimes a tree doesn't cooperate, and particularly in the case of dramatic pruning, doesn't pop buds where you want them. In a perfect world, each time you pruned the tree would produce numerous buds so you could select the best and remove the ones you didn't want or need. But that isn't always the case and you are left wondering - is it better to proceed with branch that isn't exactly where I want it? Or is it better to reprune at the same spot and hope for different results the second time?

In the case of elms, they can take so much abuse, that you can often let a "bad" branch grow out (just to maintain the health of the tree), and then prune the bad branch back very short, and get a new round of buds from the new stub that may include a bud that heads off in the correct direction So it is a combination of plan, technique and luck so that you eventually end up where you want to be.

When you hard prune a major branch, and it only buds on one side of the pruning scar, you will probably get bark die-back anyway... since the tree no longer needs to provide water and nutrients to any branches on that side of the trunk.

If you look just at the left side of the tree (the first scar) you can see where the bark is dying/dead, and is starting to flake away from the deadwood. What you want to do is carve all of that dead wood and bark away until you hit live bark, leaving a concavity. Seal the wound edges. Then the tree should start pushing callous growth that will heal over the scar. You want to carve it as a concave depression because you want to leave room for the callousing over of the scar... so that when it heals it heals flush. (like second image). If you carve the scar flush at the beginning (without a concavity) when the scar heals you will be left with an unsightly lump.





Also, as a general rule you don't want more than two branches to emerge from the same spot on a tree because it causes swelling and inverse taper. On this left side of the tree I would pick the two branches that work best for your future plans... and remove the third.

 

[JesusFreak]

Thanks a lot for the advice. I will do that. What’s ur advice for the right side. Go below that hideous lump before it splits? Let the left side grow out first then make some chips to the right ?

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

I had recommended flat cuts when doing the initial chop, because you never know where it is going to back bud, and the buds would determine the design.

I intended to tell you to go back and trim, carve, re-cut the stubs, once the "keeper branches" had been chosen. It is important you wait until the "keeper branches" have developed enough that bumping them while carving the stubs won't knock them off the tree.

THis tree is only 3 or 4 months from the initial "Chops". It has made remarkable recovery. As a northerner, I am amazed at how much growth you have gotten this year. So I was planning on telling you about carving, re-shaping the stubs. I just didn't think we'd need to get to it so quickly.

The "reverse taper" should not be an issue, as I see this tree needed several cycles of growing out, then pruning back hard, then growing out, then pruning back hard. NO FURTHER TRUNK CHOPS NEEDED.

Carve the flat stubs to diagonal concave wounds that @Bonsai Nut described, both on the left side as illustrated but also on the right side, too. You want to let your keeper branches extend until they are at least half the diameter of the trunk they emerge from. Then cut them back. For as fast as this tree is growing in your climate, I'm sure sometime next year you will be pruning these keepers. But for now, let them lengthen.

At least this is my advice.

I would have walked you through how to ground layer and develop a new, radial nebari, but you seem to really like the roots you have, so I will hold off on that until you decide you want to change the surface roots.

The strength of this tree is the nice bark it has. I would keep as much of the old trunk as possible.

 

[Forsoothe!]

.

 

[fredman]

I would have walked you through how to ground layer and develop a new, radial nebari, but you seem to really like the roots you have, so I will hold off on that until you decide you want to change the surface roots

@JesusFreak Mind if we step back some...?
I'm intrigued to know your thoughts about the roots. Am I right in thinking you're happy with it? If so...why?

 

[JesusFreak]

@JesusFreak Mind if we step back some...?
I'm intrigued to know your thoughts about the roots. Am I right in thinking you're happy with it? If so...why?

Well it’s not that I’m satisfied with the roots/nebari bc I’m learning with bonsai that you can never really be satisfied. Atleast this is how I am with everything. Always want greater. So I guess my initial look at the roots was pretty cool bc it’s abstract. It needs something I agree. I just wasn’t sure I want to completely get rid of what I have. Maybe ground/air layer is an options. The other side of the tree has a really cool feature as well but unfortunately it doesn’t show off the original split it does however show off the best view for its tapering. See below.

I don’t want to loose the gnarly bark the tree gives off. It’s what I like most as Leo as stated. So honestly i was the willing time keep the subpar nebari. I will spend time on it obviously. I didn’t expect the tree to grow so fast tbh. This was the tree in April.