Did I do This Chop Correctly?

[dbonsaiw]

Looking to develop a short and fat bonsai with this tree and chopped it down yesterday. The leader was growing almost laterally, so I guy wired it to about 45 degrees. I'm going to grow out the leader for the next few years, but wanted to make sure this has been set up to grow correctly. Specifically, should the leader be angled differently? Should the angled cut be made on steeper angle?

The stump is about 3.5" tall and 2.5" thick above the root flare.

 

[Dav4]

I've done this degree of chop with both a trident and a palmatum... I still have the trident, while the palmatum eventually collapsed as it wasn't vigorous enough to survive the huge loss of canopy. Anyway, the chop looks fine but I'm not sure how well the tree will do moving forward. Time will tell.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I've done this degree of chop with both a trident and a palmatum... I still have the trident, while the palmatum eventually collapsed as it wasn't vigorous enough to survive the huge loss of canopy. Anyway, the chop looks fine but I'm not sure how well the tree will do moving forward. Time will tell.

Thanks. I have a progression of this tree elsewhere and, assuming it lives, will update there. This started as a grafted laceleaf and I chopped off the graft leaving a 12" stump of rootstock (Why? I liked the nebari). Shoots only grew from where they are growing in the pic above, although I did lose a bit in the recent chop (hard not to lose young tender branches when sawing like a maniac). In short, I'm hoping that there's little loss of vigor as there really wasn't much of a canopy to begin with.

 

[Shibui]

I have numerous experiences similar to @Dav4. Sometimes JM will just die outright after a large reduction, sometimes the roots away from the live shoot die from lack of food and half the trunk dies before sap flow can change.
I now do large trunk chops in stages to allow the trunk to change sap flow gradually - chop so there is something to maintain sap flow on all sides then continue to suppress growth on any redundant branches and build strength in the new leader. Even if there's no actual shoots evident, leaving the stump longer will often help maintain sap flow and often new buds will sprout to help.
After a year or 2 the remaining trunk can be reduced with greater confidence of less die back.

Fingers crossed for this one.

 

[dbonsaiw]

sometimes the roots away from the live shoot die from lack of food

I guess there is a lot I do not understand about plant biology. Does a branch on one side of a tree only nourish the roots near it? If so, I don't understand why the roots on the other side didn't die before I cut the trunk Sunday as there were no branches on that side? To be sure, the trunk was chopped previously leaving an 11" trunk. What grew were 2 shoots really low down - nothing grew higher. I chopped the trunk again on Sunday. Does this change anything?

and half the trunk dies before sap flow can change

As the branch that remains is the highest branch that was there before the cut, I'm not sure what has changed in the sap flow. Can you elaborate?

Fingers crossed for this one.

Like hearing your barber say "oops". Lol. Fingers crossed.

Anything I can do to improve the odds for this tree?

 

[nuttiest]

Looks awesome, nice to have so many low branches already there.

 

[Potawatomi13]

"Did I do This Chop Correctly?"​

Why even bother to ask AFTER cutting off tree? Time to ask is BEFORE doing what likely is stupid act. IF tree survives will take forever to heal over huge scar on disproportionately short trunk.

 

[Shibui]

As the branch that remains is the highest branch that was there before the cut, I'm not sure what has changed in the sap flow. Can you elaborate?

Apologies, I missed where you said this was chopped high some time ago. Provided it has had sufficient time that higher chop should have allowed the tree to adjust sap flow to the only viable shoot as mentioned in post #4
The comment was aimed more at radical chops that remove an entire canopy in one cut.
Sap tends to take the shortest path so branches are often connected to roots directly below. Sap can change paths but it takes time to do so and only when forced to do so. Chopping strong branches can result in the death of the root directly below and vice versa. That is the rationale behind slowly reducing strong branches or trunk. Removal over a year or 2 allows time for new sap connections to form and gain strength before losing the former sap paths.

Anything I can do to improve the odds for this tree?

Nothing I am aware of now that the chop is done.

 

[Brian Van Fleet]

Pretty aggressive chop. But, if you have patience and a vision, one day it will have plenty of movement down low.
The trouble I run into with chops like this is dieback where no branches exist. The area in yellow, for example, may die back to the roots, and then half of the tree is dead:

To combat this, if you are lucky enough to get a few shoots at the chop site, keep them, but keep them cut super short. Let it grow two nodes, and trim it back to a single pair of leaves, repeat. This will help keep the circumference of the trunk alive and aid healing the chop.

 

[dbonsaiw]

Very helpful, albeit troubling information. When I asked the question originally I wasn't expecting these responses. My initial question was whether I should angle the cut further and/or increase the angle of the leader. I wasn't asking if I should make the cut I already made. That would indeed be silly. I didn't realize that the cut itself would be so problematic. Just assumed it would back bud like crazy and all would be good. Live and learn (at least for me; not sure about the tree).

The trouble I run into with chops like this is dieback where no branches exist. The area in yellow, for example, may die back to the roots, and then half of the tree is dead

This doesn't sound fatal and may not actually be so bad. If the area in yellow dies back, do the roots still survive and I'm basically growing a new leader from the side of an even smaller stump? I can live with that for this tree.

If what I did is likely to be fatal to the tree altogether, would an attempt at some thread grafts around the wound be advisable at this point?

 

[August44]

OP...You sound like you know about as much as I do about doing things like this. The tree looks like it was a nice size and had some things going for it. I would never have chopped like you did without asking for advice first. Just MO of course.

 

[dbonsaiw]

The tree looks like it was a nice size and had some things going for it. I would never have chopped like you did without asking for advice first. Just MO of course.

Rub it in why don't you? For what it's worth, I didn't understand the potential pitfalls of the chop. Rather, I viewed this as any other trunk chop to an existing branch. Although it makes perfect sense in retrospect to have shoots all around before the chop, I rarely see this actually done in the pics of trunk chops I've seen. I haven't seen this recommended in any book either. This tree had a nice leader growing (part of which was lost in the chop) as well as shoots on the far side of the pic (perhaps that can't be seen in the pics here). With shoots growing in two places I thought I was good to go.

I will admit that I am thoroughly confused. If you take a look at Merrigioli's section on formation of the "mighty trunk", what he suggests isn't far off from what I just did. First, he recommends a blind "pollarding" (love that word) really low. If you fear die back, he suggests cutting a little higher, waiting for a bud to pop and cutting again a few weeks later on an angle using the bud as the new leader. The presumption is that buds will pop all around below the new cut and that is what will be used to form the fat base of this style tree (not what I'm actually going for here). This appears to be a much more perilous operation than he makes it out to be.

 

[Hack Yeah!]

If the tree was vigorous before the work I bet you get something to work with

 

[dbonsaiw]

In addition to mangling trees, I enjoy beating dead horses. What will be of this tree will be, but I'm not sure what I've learned here. And I'm here for no reason other than to learn.

Attached are before and after pics of the trunk chop. As you can see, nothing grew on much of the trunk and so I cut it down to the highest branch. Although I have a great to learn about sap flow and the like, "flow" indicates a back and forth. And if there is no growth in much of the trunk, then there is no "forth" and therefore no "flow" of sap there. Accordingly, I do not understand how cutting off what presumably was a dead portion of the trunk interrupts nonexistent sap flow. That is, unless the assumption is that buds popping higher up was still a possibility. All I can say to this is that I have a number of threads involving trees that had a blind reduction and which only grew lower buds. I was advised repeatedly not to expect any higher buds as the upper portions of those trunks were likely dead (and in fact no higher buds have grown on any of them). So my working assumption here was that much of the trunk could safely be removed.

In addition, as I basically left all growth intact (except for what was lost due to friction from the back of the saw), I don't understand how the tree is in any different position now in respect of existing growth to encourage sap flow than it was before the cut. Both before and after the cut the tree is in the position of needing to grow shoots in the lower portion of the trunk where sap is presumably still flowing (if not, the tree was screwed already). I viewed this as cutting now gets rid of what's not needed and allows the healing process to start.

Trees are resilient; egos not so much. So I'll say that I'm not arguing with anyone and just trying to figure this stuff out.

 

[19Mateo83]

Trees are resilient; egos not so much.

You said a mouth full with this one! So true. If that stump had been vigorously growing from that lower shoot (which it looks to have been) and the top had already previously been chopped (which it had), your chances of survival go WAY up. Pollarded trees come back with much less left on the stump. I wouldn’t be surprised if this one throws off more buds and keeps chugging along like nothing ever happened. Especially since there’s shoots on the back of the stump and what looks like a lower node on the front that wants to throw a bud or two. Btw I’m a “the cup is half full” kinda guy

 

[LanceMac10]

Trees ARE resilient.....in the ground.....
Pollarded trees bounce back almost all the time.....in the ground....

Stop fiddling with it. Leave the one with the long top be.
If these were mine, I wouldn't even look at them for 2-3 seasons after this procedure. No wire, nothing. Maybe a July trim....

The huge container won't help, keep an eye on your watering. Such a reduction doesn't give your new growth a chance to establish itself and grow before the overall damp conditions begin to attract pathogens and fungus.

Patience.

 

[dbonsaiw]

I figured some follow up on mistakes would be informative to others, so - BVF seems to be on the money. If you look at his post #9, the tree seems to have died around the area of the yellow lines, but somewhat thinner than in the pic. I've found it difficult to get a good pic with my phone, but I can see where the trunk grew this year based off the area that didn't experience any growth (because it's likely dead there). There is a darker color to the dead wood as well. Live and learn. I will continue to maintain and work with the tree to see what becomes of it. I also don't have a whole lot of experience with how trees respond after pruning, so it will be educational to watch this tree over the years (assuming it makes it). With any luck, I can apply what I learn to the next round of trees. I can tell you that once bitten twice shy - my planned trunk chops for next season will all be to existing branches so I don't run into this issue again. I will go slower - an extra season of work as opposed to a ruined tree is well worth it.

As funny as this may sound, other than the dead part, the tree is doing fine. Grew like wildfire and no sign of any pathogens.

 

[BobbyLane]

yeh that chop is a gamble on maples, on an elm or hornbeam not so much in my experience. because it happened once on a maple doesnt mean its going to happen with all species. so I wouldnt be afraid to try it again on something else. I like to chop trees that have a lot of root though, that makes a difference to how quick they will recover and begin forming callus.

 

[jandslegate]

Not to derail from the post but I felt it was relevant to the discussion. With respect to @Shibui's advice about chopping in stages; would it be best to forgo chopping altogether if I were considering collecting from the ground?

The JM (palmatum) in question will have been in the ground just shy of five years next spring. I'm unsure ( and hesitant to ask a stupid question) which would be more appropriate. I know it's not uncommon to have some reduction in deciduous during collection but at the same time due to sap flow larger cuts wouldn't come until later in the season to reduce excessive bleeding. I've successfully chopped and collected other deciduous of different sp. but this would be the first time with a JM. I know the general answer as to could it go in the ground longer is almost always yes, lol, but the area where it was planted is becoming over crowded (struggling from success, heh),

 

[August44]

Rub it in why don't you? For what it's worth, I didn't understand the potential pitfalls of the chop. Rather, I viewed this as any other trunk chop to an existing branch. Although it makes perfect sense in retrospect to have shoots all around before the chop, I rarely see this actually done in the pics of trunk chops I've seen. I haven't seen this recommended in any book either. This tree had a nice leader growing (part of which was lost in the chop) as well as shoots on the far side of the pic (perhaps that can't be seen in the pics here). With shoots growing in two places I thought I was good to go.

I will admit that I am thoroughly confused. If you take a look at Merrigioli's section on formation of the "mighty trunk", what he suggests isn't far off from what I just did. First, he recommends a blind "pollarding" (love that word) really low. If you fear die back, he suggests cutting a little higher, waiting for a bud to pop and cutting again a few weeks later on an angle using the bud as the new leader. The presumption is that buds will pop all around below the new cut and that is what will be used to form the fat base of this style tree (not what I'm actually going for here). This appears to be a much more perilous operation than he makes it out to be.

By the way dbonsaiw, I was not rubbing anything in, and sorry you took it that way. The fact is, this web site is for comments, questions, and to learn. Asking questions, including "dumb ones" is a ok with most people on here. Most of us have lost trees by not asking "the dumb question" before we went forth, I know that I have. Apologize if I riled you.