Did I take off too many roots?

sorce

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, but can you also expect to add reasonable girth below the cuts

According to the definition of "reasonable", the answer is yes.
According to how "reasonable" relates to design, the answer is maybe.

(Some kinda BS you can't search @Anthony)
Edit to add, https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/j...kening-which-branch-to-use-side-or-top.40736/
He had pictures and explanations of a couple different trees he has, one that does add lower girth from sac branches, and one that won't add trunk thickness except when apically strong.

These come on 2 ends of the spectrum.
2 completely different design/building methods/capabilities.

Every tree fits somewhere on that spectrum and needs appropriate action for where it fits.

What is not a spectrum, and I consider a Rule ....

Every tree is trying to untaper itself.

It's the only thing always actively working against our design mission.

This is why I find it so damn important to build taper, and why I consider it the only thing we are actually "doing" to a tree.

Of cut size and healing....

Think of the wound as a wick to a stick of dynamite.
The bigger the cut, the shorter the wick.
The explosion and design death is when the wound surface becomes too soft to close over.
You cut it, and it's lit.

A 6in hole on a soft wood tree is short wicked.
A 1/4in hole on a hardwood tree is long AF.

"Lengthen your wick"

A 6in maple cut to nothing is a short wick.
Proper wound care lengthens the wick.
Cutting to small buds adds more length.
Cutting to large buds adds more.
Cutting to small branches adds more.
Cutting to large branches adds more.
Cutting to entirely built next segments is best.

So no matter what tree you are working with....

You must consider these 3 aspects.

Know for all that is Holy, every tree is trying to untaper itself and this is The only thing we are always actively working against. This makes the most important mission the most difficult.

Know what type of tree you are working with and it's growth habits. A study of Brazilian Rain Tree growth should be utilized, as it is an oddity of knowledge.

Lengthen your wick. The impatient fool cuts to nothing. Build to Cut. Don't cut to Build.

Taper Resorce.

Sorce
 

sorce

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Some kinda BS you can't search @Anthony)

But you can click the @ and find the info!


Sorce
 

Shibui

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How does that work, in practice? I have read conflicting things about whether lower sections of a trunk will continue to thicken appreciably after chop and regrowth. Intuitively it does make sense to me that a series of small chops would lead to smoother taper and easier-to-close wounds than a couple large ones, but can you also expect to add reasonable girth below the cuts?
Every bit of growth above adds thickness below.
If there are many shoots from the trunk thickening is spread out, each contributing to thickening below and the thickening appears cumulative meaning the highest shoot adds the same 1/8 in (say) to the trunk all the way to the ground. Next shoot down also adds 1/8" but only below so that adds to the 1/8 from the shoot above - trunk below shoot 2 now 1/4" thicker below shoot 2 and so on.
Here's one I prepared last season.
IMGP3303.JPG
Obviously not all end up with this taper. I've chosen the best example I can find to illustrate the point.

While I'm uploading pics here's some nebari.
IMGP3306.JPGIMGP3307.JPG
Note that no boards were used in creating this spreading root system.
 

cwilhelm

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Here's one I prepared last season.
View attachment 424882
Obviously not all end up with this taper. I've chosen the best example I can find to illustrate the point.
That is indeed beautiful taper, and thank you for going through the trouble to share a real world example. If you don't mind me asking and happen remember for this particular tree, how many rounds of small chops does that represent? And where were they made? How thick was the base relative to where it is now when the first chop was made? (In essence, what constitutes a "small" chop for a result like that?)

At a glance the lower section of this trunk is substantially girthier than C-Jewel's was at the time he made his dramatic chop, so it's impressive evidence of the technique. Thanks again.
 

SeanS

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I’ve learnt from experience this season that trunks below a leader/sacrifice do thicken somewhat. I wired some branches on a JM project of mine and had some for the wires wrapped a turn or 2 around the first trunk section in order to pair up branches with a single wire. The leader grew and fattened up, but so did the lower first trunk section, causing the wire wrapped around it to bite in 😢
It wasn’t so much consistent circular thickening of the lower trunk, more like irregular thickening in “flutes” up and down the trunk between the branches, showing that sap flow to and from each branch causes growth of the sap “highways” from the roots to each branch.
 

Shibui

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That is indeed beautiful taper, and thank you for going through the trouble to share a real world example. If you don't mind me asking and happen remember for this particular tree, how many rounds of small chops does that represent? And where were they made? How thick was the base relative to where it is now when the first chop was made? (In essence, what constitutes a "small" chop for a result like that?)
I don't keep track of individual trees so can't give exact answer just general.

This one appears to have been cut early (green line) which resulted in 2 leaders which were allowed to grow for one year (brown line 'tree').
From the side showed in the photo the right leader was removed close to the trunk (black line). You may be able to pick out the front edge of the healing callus marked in red on this marked photo. That has given the trunk both taper and a change of direction at the chop.
I guess the remaining left leader was chopped to the first node (black line) resulting in several new leaders which you can see in the photo.

trident 3a.png

These were all allowed to grow for another year which added more thickening to the lower trunk and almost healed the previous chop scar.
I have not made the final decision on which of the remaining stumps will be retained because that may depend on where new shoots grow, personal preference, which front is chosen, etc. but you may be able to imagine the new bends and taper that will result if each of those remaining leaders was eliminated.

I'm confident that 3x 1" leaders equals or exceeds a single 3" leader in terms of leaf mass and growth potential so I'm still getting really good thickening but each of those 1" scars will heal in 1/3 the time of the single 3" cut.

Back to the questions. My best guess is this is around 3 consecutive chops.
Hope the amended pic shows where and how.
The original cut to get the first Y fork was probably as a small seedling so maybe just pencil thick. Second chop was much bigger - probably inch and a half diameter but subsequent massive growth has almost healed that chop in just one year. Note the term massive growth. If a large chop is made just before the stump goes into a box or pot subsequent growth will rarely be massive. In a box the same chop may take 3-4 years to heal. Even longer if the evolving leader is restricted to start ramification or to get better taper, etc.
Many years ago this approach was how I attempted to develop trunks so I have plenty of previous experience in grow to size without chop, large final chops and then develop from the stump. This may be quicker to achieve trunk diameter but subsequent development of taper, bends and ramification blows out to 10-15 years instead of 5-10 years for my current approach.

Much of this is may be difficult to follow until you have seen just how these tridents respond and grow.
 

cwilhelm

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I don't keep track of individual trees so can't give exact answer just general.

This one appears to have been cut early (green line) which resulted in 2 leaders which were allowed to grow for one year (brown line 'tree').
From the side showed in the photo the right leader was removed close to the trunk (black line). You may be able to pick out the front edge of the healing callus marked in red on this marked photo. That has given the trunk both taper and a change of direction at the chop.
I guess the remaining left leader was chopped to the first node (black line) resulting in several new leaders which you can see in the photo.

View attachment 425313

These were all allowed to grow for another year which added more thickening to the lower trunk and almost healed the previous chop scar.
I have not made the final decision on which of the remaining stumps will be retained because that may depend on where new shoots grow, personal preference, which front is chosen, etc. but you may be able to imagine the new bends and taper that will result if each of those remaining leaders was eliminated.

I'm confident that 3x 1" leaders equals or exceeds a single 3" leader in terms of leaf mass and growth potential so I'm still getting really good thickening but each of those 1" scars will heal in 1/3 the time of the single 3" cut.

Back to the questions. My best guess is this is around 3 consecutive chops.
Hope the amended pic shows where and how.
The original cut to get the first Y fork was probably as a small seedling so maybe just pencil thick. Second chop was much bigger - probably inch and a half diameter but subsequent massive growth has almost healed that chop in just one year. Note the term massive growth. If a large chop is made just before the stump goes into a box or pot subsequent growth will rarely be massive. In a box the same chop may take 3-4 years to heal. Even longer if the evolving leader is restricted to start ramification or to get better taper, etc.
Many years ago this approach was how I attempted to develop trunks so I have plenty of previous experience in grow to size without chop, large final chops and then develop from the stump. This may be quicker to achieve trunk diameter but subsequent development of taper, bends and ramification blows out to 10-15 years instead of 5-10 years for my current approach.

Much of this is may be difficult to follow until you have seen just how these tridents respond and grow.
Thanks Shibui, this was really helpful. The sketch overlay on the photo makes the likely history of the tree clear. I think my most important takeaway here is that it’s not just frequency of the chops that keeps the individual sites and resultant scars smaller, but the fact that you are allowing the growth to be distributed across multiple smaller leaders instead of a single massive one, so you are making several smaller cuts at a time.
 
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