Difference in white pine cultivars

Lolodigogo

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Hello to all! I’ve recently acquired two younger white pine. One is a 3 year old Arakawa graft and the other is a 7 year Catherine Elizabeth. I’m having a hard time figuring out if they are long needle single flush, or short needle single flush. I know Catherine elizabeth is a dwarf cultivar, and I believe it would be a short needle single flush because of this. The Arakawa I’d think long needle single flush. As far as I know it’s a corker, and not a dwarf? If anyone could shine some light on this I would greatly appreciate it. Can’t seem to figure it out.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Both 'Catherine Elizabeth' and 'Arakawa' are Pinus parviflora - Japanese white pines. They are treated like Japanese white pines, a category that pre-existed or is the grandfather of the whole somewhat arbitrary category of Single Flush pines. There is a huge volume of literature, books, and web pages devoted strictly to Japanese white pines. Don't confuse yourself by trying to fit JWP into any categories other than Japanese White Pine. It is its own thing, and its care and techniques are very well documented, second best documented pine. compared to any other pine, only the Japanese Black Pine, might have more articles and books written about it.

Techniques for all other single flush pines were based on techniques for Japanese white pines. So look up and only study Japanese white pine techniques when looking for care guidelines for 'Catherine Elizabeth' and 'Arakawa'. Don't confuse yourself by including anything that is not specifically Japanese white pine related.

'Arakawa' is a dwarf to near normal size growing JWP. Its ultimate size in the ground is maybe 10 to 15 feet in 20 years. Its needles are average, 3 to 4 inches long, and straight, with minimal twisting. Needles are a medium to dark green, with some "blue" from the lines of stoma on the undersides of the needles. It is not particularly blue, but it is definitely not yellow if healthy. Some JWP can be yellowish green. 'Arakawa' is a nice medium dark green. It develops a warty bark. It is not ridged like some Japanese black pines, it is more warty, develops an interesting texture with time. Warts begin to show by the 5th year, possibly a little earlier, and will consolidate to cover the branch or trunk completely by 10 to 15 years. This cultivar does not air layer or root from cuttings. All true to type are propagated by grafting. Only scions grafted low into the root zone of the understock make high quality bonsai. A high graft will look more and more awkward the older the tree gets. All in all a good bonsai specimen if the graft is low enough to be disguised in the pot. Foliage management is pretty much as for standard Japanese White Pines, nothing exceptional. Probably best for medium to larger size trees, as the needles are close to normal type form for the species, about 4 inches. The key feature is the bark, a taller larger tree will provide more opportunity to show off the prime feature, the bark of the tree. Too small a design, and the unique feature, the bark, would go unappreciated.

If your wart bark JWP has needles that twist 180 degrees or more along their axis, the cultivar is not 'Arakawa', the most likely cultivar would be 'Ibo Can' which is an excellent wart bark JWP. Its main distinction from 'Arakawa' is its twisting needle. Otherwise they are quite similar. There is one commercial vendor that has the two cultivars mixed up. This is not a big issue, both are equally valuable as bonsai, 'Ibo Can is somewhat rare compared to 'Arakawa' so if you have a twisty needle 'Arakawa' you lucked out and got a more valuable 'Ibo Can'.

'Catherine Elizabeth' - this is a short needled dwarf form of JWP. Needles are short, 1 to 2 inches without twisting. The short needles means it is good for any size bonsai, from smallest to largest. The tree begins producing small pine cones at an early age. At 10 years this will likely be less than 5 feet tall in the ground. Much smaller if container grown. Needle color is medium green to slightly blue. This cultivar does not air layer or root from cuttings. All 'Catherine Elizabeth' are propagated by grafting. The bark of 'Catherine Elizabeth' is similar to normal JWP, which means high grafts will eventually heal well enough that most of the time the graft union will not be an issue. The choice of understock will determine whether the graft union bark will blend with the scion bark. Usually there will be no problems. I have had high grafted 'Catherine Elizabeth' and the graft was essentially invisible except for a slight diameter change. No special techniques needed for 'Catherine Elizabeth', except that as a dwarf, grow will be slower, requiring more time between techniques to recover.

JWP on their own roots are hardy into zone 4. Grafted trees are only as hardy as the understock. If purchased from the landscape nursery trade, understock is likely to be Pinus sylvestris or Pinus nigra. Both are quite winter hardy. If purchased from a nursery producing strictly for the bonsai market the understock is likely to be Japanese black pine, which would mean they would only be hardy through zone 6b, maybe into 6a. Grafts require 5 to 10 years to fully fuse. Do not subject a grafted tree to freeze-thaw conditions until after the 2nd growing season post grafting. Ice expanding in the graft union can separate the scion from the understock if subjected to freeze-thaw before the union has healed enough to resist the frost expansion. If you don't have a protected area for 1st year grafts, spend the extra money and purchase trees that are 3 years post grafting. You will have fewer problems.

Avoid wiring across the graft until after fusion is complete, Give at least 5 years before putting tension of the graft union, more time would be safer.
 

Adair M

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All JWP would be considered “short needle” single flush. (Using Ryan Neil terminology.)
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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All JWP would be considered “short needle” single flush. (Using Ryan Neil terminology.)

Yes, this is true.
JWP defined the care for "Short Needle Single Flush", it is the archetypal species for the group.

Most of the good literature on care of Japanese White Pine pre-dates the use of the term "Short Needle Single Flush" pines, so best is look for articles specific about JWP. There is no shortage. And @Adair M is one of the small handful on BNut who has a proven track record of producing beautiful JWP. His avatar image is one of his personal JWP. So as you progress with your pines, be sure to consult Adair M, and take his advice. Also use the BNut search engine and read his older posts about care and techniques for JWP.
 

Adair M

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Yes, this is true.
JWP defined the care for "Short Needle Single Flush", it is the archetypal species for the group.

Most of the good literature on care of Japanese White Pine pre-dates the use of the term "Short Needle Single Flush" pines, so best is look for articles specific about JWP. There is no shortage. And @Adair M is one of the small handful on BNut who has a proven track record of producing beautiful JWP. His avatar image is one of his personal JWP. So as you progress with your pines, be sure to consult Adair M, and take his advice. Also use the BNut search engine and read his older posts about care and techniques for JWP.
Actually, my avatar picture is a Japanese BLACK Pine. With needles the length of the average JWP.

I do have a few pretty nice JWP, though. Here’s one:

A83EF84A-9B03-4443-AC10-2034038FB245.jpeg

My avatar tree, the JBP:

2FC72DCD-9A56-40E0-A027-C66A0EAF7E17.jpeg
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Arakawa is a corking pine ('arakawa' translates to 'rough skin [bark]').


respectfully,
Rick

Yes, but on JWP it is not like the winged cork bark of a JBP like 'Kyokko Yatsubusa', it is a different looking bark.
For JWP 'Ibo Can' the bark is pebbly rather than forming plates or ridges.
If I get time I'll dig photos of my trees. They are no longer with me, the photos will be from the 1980's and 1990's
 

Tieball

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Both 'Catherine Elizabeth' and 'Arakawa' are Pinus parviflora - Japanese white pines. They are treated like Japanese white pines, a category that pre-existed or is the grandfather of the whole somewhat arbitrary category of Single Flush pines. There is a huge volume of literature, books, and web pages devoted strictly to Japanese white pines. Don't confuse yourself by trying to fit JWP into any categories other than Japanese White Pine. It is its own thing, and its care and techniques are very well documented, second best documented pine. compared to any other pine, only the Japanese Black Pine, might have more articles and books written about it.

Techniques for all other single flush pines were based on techniques for Japanese white pines. So look up and only study Japanese white pine techniques when looking for care guidelines for 'Catherine Elizabeth' and 'Arakawa'. Don't confuse yourself by including anything that is not specifically Japanese white pine related.

'Arakawa' is a dwarf to near normal size growing JWP. Its ultimate size in the ground is maybe 10 to 15 feet in 20 years. Its needles are average, 3 to 4 inches long, and straight, with minimal twisting. Needles are a medium to dark green, with some "blue" from the lines of stoma on the undersides of the needles. It is not particularly blue, but it is definitely not yellow if healthy. Some JWP can be yellowish green. 'Arakawa' is a nice medium dark green. It develops a warty bark. It is not ridged like some Japanese black pines, it is more warty, develops an interesting texture with time. Warts begin to show by the 5th year, possibly a little earlier, and will consolidate to cover the branch or trunk completely by 10 to 15 years. This cultivar does not air layer or root from cuttings. All true to type are propagated by grafting. Only scions grafted low into the root zone of the understock make high quality bonsai. A high graft will look more and more awkward the older the tree gets. All in all a good bonsai specimen if the graft is low enough to be disguised in the pot. Foliage management is pretty much as for standard Japanese White Pines, nothing exceptional. Probably best for medium to larger size trees, as the needles are close to normal type form for the species, about 4 inches. The key feature is the bark, a taller larger tree will provide more opportunity to show off the prime feature, the bark of the tree. Too small a design, and the unique feature, the bark, would go unappreciated.

If your wart bark JWP has needles that twist 180 degrees or more along their axis, the cultivar is not 'Arakawa', the most likely cultivar would be 'Ibo Can' which is an excellent wart bark JWP. Its main distinction from 'Arakawa' is its twisting needle. Otherwise they are quite similar. There is one commercial vendor that has the two cultivars mixed up. This is not a big issue, both are equally valuable as bonsai, 'Ibo Can is somewhat rare compared to 'Arakawa' so if you have a twisty needle 'Arakawa' you lucked out and got a more valuable 'Ibo Can'.

'Catherine Elizabeth' - this is a short needled dwarf form of JWP. Needles are short, 1 to 2 inches without twisting. The short needles means it is good for any size bonsai, from smallest to largest. The tree begins producing small pine cones at an early age. At 10 years this will likely be less than 5 feet tall in the ground. Much smaller if container grown. Needle color is medium green to slightly blue. This cultivar does not air layer or root from cuttings. All 'Catherine Elizabeth' are propagated by grafting. The bark of 'Catherine Elizabeth' is similar to normal JWP, which means high grafts will eventually heal well enough that most of the time the graft union will not be an issue. The choice of understock will determine whether the graft union bark will blend with the scion bark. Usually there will be no problems. I have had high grafted 'Catherine Elizabeth' and the graft was essentially invisible except for a slight diameter change. No special techniques needed for 'Catherine Elizabeth', except that as a dwarf, grow will be slower, requiring more time between techniques to recover.

JWP on their own roots are hardy into zone 4. Grafted trees are only as hardy as the understock. If purchased from the landscape nursery trade, understock is likely to be Pinus sylvestris or Pinus nigra. Both are quite winter hardy. If purchased from a nursery producing strictly for the bonsai market the understock is likely to be Japanese black pine, which would mean they would only be hardy through zone 6b, maybe into 6a. Grafts require 5 to 10 years to fully fuse. Do not subject a grafted tree to freeze-thaw conditions until after the 2nd growing season post grafting. Ice expanding in the graft union can separate the scion from the understock if subjected to freeze-thaw before the union has healed enough to resist the frost expansion. If you don't have a protected area for 1st year grafts, spend the extra money and purchase trees that are 3 years post grafting. You will have fewer problems.

Avoid wiring across the graft until after fusion is complete, Give at least 5 years before putting tension of the graft union, more time would be safer.
Wow! Knowledge. I think you have nanorobotics that were grown from a protein imbedded in your brain that record and categorize all that you see and touch and hear which allows you to instantaneously retrieve and replay as needed utilizing nanogradation magnetic nerve endings encased within your fingertips that become attracted to sensory keys on a communicator device to pulse and output on demand a message utilizing a tech device such as a tablet or pc....all harnessed to provide an in-depth detailed reply. Well done! Detailed! Seriously.....Mighty fine! You do know pines.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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Wow! Knowledge. I think you have nanorobotics that were grown from a protein imbedded in your brain that record and categorize all that you see and touch and hear which allows you to instantaneously retrieve and replay as needed utilizing nanogradation magnetic nerve endings encased within your fingertips that become attracted to sensory keys on a communicator device to pulse and output on demand a message utilizing a tech device such as a tablet or pc....all harnessed to provide an in-depth detailed reply. Well done! Detailed! Seriously.....Mighty fine! You do know pines.

Nah,
I've been growing bonsai and reading about bonsai since I was 15. I'm 64 soon to be 65. With 50 years of reading behind me, if I only remember 5% of what I read, it is still a boatload of information. Nothing magical, just time. My first 25 years I was under the impression I could learn bonsai from books and the internet (once it got invented), but I was mistaken. I finally joined a club, and took classes beginning 2002. The change has been tremendous. Due to turns of life, right now my collection is only about 10 to 12 years old. Have found it is really beneficial to start over once every couple decades.

I have owned and killed quite a number of different JWP and JBP cultivars. There is some hands on experience here. I know a lot about what not to do. LOL.
 

Tieball

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@Leo in N E Illinois ..... Thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge gained through years of hands-on experience. I think that sharing helps keep the brain fresh. Sometimes....I have a difficult time remembering what I had for dinner yesterday.
 

Adair M

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This is incorrect. He treats standard JWP (i.e. not short needle Zuisho) as a long needle single flush.
Interesting. What, precisely, is a “standard JWP”? A seedling?

I have 14 JWP. None are seedlings. They’re all either grafts or layers. About half are either Zuisho or Kokonoe. The other half are other cultivars.

I pretty much treat them all the same. The Zuisho and Kokonoe are dwarf varieties, so they make more buds at each terminal than the others, so I do have to thin their buds (shoots). But other than that, I treat them all similarly.
 

M. Frary

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I pretty much treat them all the same
Well,that's just wrong!
Or is it?
What about trees with long needles that you make short?
Do they get to switch into the more desirable short needle category.
And vice versa.
Do trees that aren't trained hard,get loads of fertilizer that are considered short needle grow long ones do they fall down 8nto the lesser long needle category?
I have a couple Scots pines that have needles longer than some eastern white pines.
Are those considered long or short needle?
Confused yet?
Ryan's followers sure are.
 

Adair M

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I treat trees differently depending upon what stage of development they’re in. JWP in refinement don’t get fertilized in the spring. Those that are in development (still needing growth) do get spring fertilizer. That sort of thing. Not so much about the needle length.
 

Paradox

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I treat trees differently depending upon what stage of development they’re in. JWP in refinement don’t get fertilized in the spring. Those that are in development (still needing growth) do get spring fertilizer. That sort of thing. Not so much about the needle length.


Interesting. When do you start feeding them?

I understand why spring feeding could be incorrect on a tree in refinement. You dont want that burst of spring growth to get out of control.
I should probably stop feeding my JWP in the spring as I believe both are also in the refinement stage.
They are not growing trunks or major branches or even developing lots of new foliage for pads. The pads are there, they just need to be maintained.
 

Tieball

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Interesting. When do you start feeding them?

I understand why spring feeding could be incorrect on a tree in refinement. You dont want that burst of spring growth to get out of control.
I should probably stop feeding my JWP in the spring as I believe both are also in the refinement stage.
They are not growing trunks or major branches or even developing lots of new foliage for pads. The pads are there, they just need to be maintained.
I need to learn more, a lot more, about these stages....and consequences of the wrong treatment. Deciduous though.....there’s probably a similar tree response to some degree.
 

Adair M

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Interesting. When do you start feeding them?

I understand why spring feeding could be incorrect on a tree in refinement. You dont want that burst of spring growth to get out of control.
I should probably stop feeding my JWP in the spring as I believe both are also in the refinement stage.
They are not growing trunks or major branches or even developing lots of new foliage for pads. The pads are there, they just need to be maintained.
Mid summer thru the fall.
 

M. Frary

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Interesting. When do you start feeding them?

I understand why spring feeding could be incorrect on a tree in refinement. You dont want that burst of spring growth to get out of control.
I should probably stop feeding my JWP in the spring as I believe both are also in the refinement stage.
They are not growing trunks or major branches or even developing lots of new foliage for pads. The pads are there, they just need to be maintained.
I've started doing it to a couple Scots pines.
I do give them a mild dose in the spring when the buds swell but no more until the shoots have hardened.
It helps.
Before I started they were growing needles 3 inches long.
Now it's down to one inch after one year and the trees are doing wonderful but better yet look wonderful.
Vance clued me in on doing this.
My fertilizing regimen is great for developing trees but can be a little much for trees being refined.
But as soon as the needles hardened I put the blue juice to them in copious amounts again. They still back bud like crazy too.
 
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