Dirk's big black pine (again)

DirkvanDreven

Shohin
Messages
312
Reaction score
566
Location
Wageningen, The Netherlands
USDA Zone
8b
Just finished reducing the new needles on this tree. And planning future work. The tree was potted up 5 years ago, from ground growing in a mixture of organic potting soil with Lava. After first work in 2015, the container was cut down beliw soil level, so the tree was potted on in a slightly bigger pot. spaces were filled with Akadama and pumice.

IMG_1857.JPG

I want to get it out of the plastic container, in good soil in a growbox.
It needs a graft to fill a gap on the right side under the apex.

IMG_1858.JPG

I'm keeping the unnecessary branch, first branch on the right side, for now to provide for scions. I want to graft an extra branche instead of growing out a back branche to the right to fill in.
I want the attachment of the branch to be visible.

Feel so sorry that repotting and grafting don't combine. Would speedup development.

Btw, it seems to me that the bark is breaking up in smaller pieces. Has that got to do with age, or with growing in a pot?

Any suggestions are welcome.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
11,239
Reaction score
23,820
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Just finished reducing the new needles on this tree. And planning future work. The tree was potted up 5 years ago, from ground growing in a mixture of organic potting soil with Lava. After first work in 2015, the container was cut down beliw soil level, so the tree was potted on in a slightly bigger pot. spaces were filled with Akadama and pumice.

View attachment 172950

I want to get it out of the plastic container, in good soil in a growbox.
It needs a graft to fill a gap on the right side under the apex.

View attachment 172951

I'm keeping the unnecessary branch, first branch on the right side, for now to provide for scions. I want to graft an extra branche instead of growing out a back branche to the right to fill in.
I want the attachment of the branch to be visible.

Feel so sorry that repotting and grafting don't combine. Would speedup development.

Btw, it seems to me that the bark is breaking up in smaller pieces. Has that got to do with age, or with growing in a pot?

Any suggestions are welcome.
Dirk, I think you should wait to do any grafting. It really doesn’t need it. That area where you want to graft is all scarred up from there having been 5 or 6 branches in that spot before!

Work on the roots and nebari first. Your picture doesn’t show the nebari. Just a trunk coming out of the soil.

JBP are known for producing nice bark at a young age!
 

DirkvanDreven

Shohin
Messages
312
Reaction score
566
Location
Wageningen, The Netherlands
USDA Zone
8b
As far as I know, there's no nebari. I hope some small roots emerged where the trunk is at its widest. If not, I'll graft some seedlings in place when I repot. The widest part of the trunk was kept under the soil for 5 years now.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
11,239
Reaction score
23,820
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
As far as I know, there's no nebari. I hope some small roots emerged where the trunk is at its widest. If not, I'll graft some seedlings in place when I repot. The widest part of the trunk was kept under the soil for 5 years now.
There’s nebari! Nebari is that area where trunk and roots meet.

Now there’s good nebari, and poor nebari, but there’s always nebari!
 

DirkvanDreven

Shohin
Messages
312
Reaction score
566
Location
Wageningen, The Netherlands
USDA Zone
8b
There’s nebari! Nebari is that area where trunk and roots meet.

Now there’s good nebari, and poor nebari, but there’s always nebari!
Poor nebari is no nebari?

I always thought that nebari is the visible rootspread, anchoring the tree in the ground. Of that, there is probably none, I'm afraid.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
11,239
Reaction score
23,820
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Poor nebari is no nebari?

I always thought that nebari is the visible rootspread, anchoring the tree in the ground. Of that, there is probably none, I'm afraid.
The trunk has roots. Where the trunk ends and the roots start is the nebari.

Surface roots are surface roots. The nebari is where the roots join the trunk. There is usually some flair outwards at that point.
 

0soyoung

Imperial Masterpiece
Messages
5,703
Reaction score
8,809
Location
Anacortes, WA (AHS heat zone 1)
USDA Zone
8b
The trunk has roots. Where the trunk ends and the roots start is the nebari.

Surface roots are surface roots. The nebari is where the roots join the trunk. There is usually some flair outwards at that point.
Adair, I think Dirk is trying to say that the union of roots with the trunk of his tree is so dull, uninteresting, uneventful, unattractive (etc.) as to be 'nothing' (or maybe worse). Hence, it has no 'nebari'.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
11,239
Reaction score
23,820
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Adair, I think Dirk is trying to say that the union of roots with the trunk of his tree is so dull, uninteresting, uneventful, unattractive (etc.) as to be 'nothing' (or maybe worse). Hence, it has no 'nebari'.
I’m thinking he thinks nebari means surface roots.
 

DirkvanDreven

Shohin
Messages
312
Reaction score
566
Location
Wageningen, The Netherlands
USDA Zone
8b
I’m thinking he thinks nebari means surface roots.
This is from Bonsai Empire website:
"In Japanese: Nebari - A very important aspect of a Bonsai is its Nebari (or: root-flare), the surface roots that provide visual balance to a tree. Creating a Nebari can be done using two methods; by regularly pruning the downward growing roots or by applying a propagation technique; air layering........"

Though I don't believe everything Oscar Jonker is saying, for over 30 years I am convinced that the above is the right definition of 'nebari'.

Of course this tree has roots. Nebari as in the definition above needs to be developed.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
11,239
Reaction score
23,820
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
This is from Bonsai Empire website:
"In Japanese: Nebari - A very important aspect of a Bonsai is its Nebari (or: root-flare), the surface roots that provide visual balance to a tree. Creating a Nebari can be done using two methods; by regularly pruning the downward growing roots or by applying a propagation technique; air layering........"

Though I don't believe everything Oscar Jonker is saying, for over 30 years I am convinced that the above is the right definition of 'nebari'.

Of course this tree has roots. Nebari as in the definition above needs to be developed.
The problem is the shape of the pot. A deep pot allows the roots to just grow down. To develop a nice flair, downward roots should be removed, and keep roots that grow radially. You might have to do this over several years.
 

DirkvanDreven

Shohin
Messages
312
Reaction score
566
Location
Wageningen, The Netherlands
USDA Zone
8b
I planned on making a growbox about 35 x 35 cm and 15 cm deep. The plastic container is about 34 cm wide at the top.
Does the growbox need to be wider than that or will this size do?
At what intervals can I repot to prune downward growing roots? Since Pine roots don't grow very fast I think there should be at least three years between repottings?
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
11,239
Reaction score
23,820
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
I planned on making a growbox about 35 x 35 cm and 15 cm deep. The plastic container is about 34 cm wide at the top.
Does the growbox need to be wider than that or will this size do?
At what intervals can I repot to prune downward growing roots? Since Pine roots don't grow very fast I think there should be at least three years between repottings?
Search this site for “half bare root” repot.
 

DirkvanDreven

Shohin
Messages
312
Reaction score
566
Location
Wageningen, The Netherlands
USDA Zone
8b
Search this site for “half bare root” repot.
Lol, nearly all search results on ' half bare root' are the suggestion to search the site for 'half bare root', except for one:

"So, a half bare root repot means that one half of the rootball gets barerooted. Doesn't really matter which half, the front, or the back, or either side. Using a root hook and bent tip tweezers, loosen as much soil as you can from that half. Get all the way under the trunk. Then wash that side only with water. A gentle stream will do. Be careful to retain the other half of the rootball. The unbarerooted side will have mychorazzae.

That's why we "Half Bare Root".

Two years later, do the other side."

I will do the half bare root next spring and see how the tree grows afterwards. If no vigorous growth second year after repotting, I'll just wait another year bare rooting the other side.
 

River's Edge

Omono
Messages
1,944
Reaction score
4,032
Location
Vancouver Island, British Columbia
USDA Zone
8b
I planned on making a growbox about 35 x 35 cm and 15 cm deep. The plastic container is about 34 cm wide at the top.
Does the growbox need to be wider than that or will this size do?
At what intervals can I repot to prune downward growing roots? Since Pine roots don't grow very fast I think there should be at least three years between repottings?
Your overall size of the grow box is fine. I would consider a bit shallower, say 10-12 cm if the root ball can fit. After all you are trying to promote side root as opposed to down root. Given the correct soil mix, water and fertiliser pine roots grow quite fast actually.
My Pine grow box's are 27.5 cm by 27.5 cm and 11.25 cm deep. You may wish a deeper one to accomodate the transition as the tree is currently in a fairly deep container. Be sure to assess the current root potential before deciding to try and develop something higher up on the trunk. As Adair mentioned there is a good chance there is a wider base below, unless you have a reverse taper or some other type of fault hidden by the deep planting.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
11,239
Reaction score
23,820
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
Lol, nearly all search results on ' half bare root' are the suggestion to search the site for 'half bare root', except for one:

"So, a half bare root repot means that one half of the rootball gets barerooted. Doesn't really matter which half, the front, or the back, or either side. Using a root hook and bent tip tweezers, loosen as much soil as you can from that half. Get all the way under the trunk. Then wash that side only with water. A gentle stream will do. Be careful to retain the other half of the rootball. The unbarerooted side will have mychorazzae.

That's why we "Half Bare Root".

Two years later, do the other side."

I will do the half bare root next spring and see how the tree grows afterwards. If no vigorous growth second year after repotting, I'll just wait another year bare rooting the other side.
Yeah, I guess I need to make a post and put it in the “resources” section! MarkyScott is good at that kind of thing!
 

DirkvanDreven

Shohin
Messages
312
Reaction score
566
Location
Wageningen, The Netherlands
USDA Zone
8b
Yesterday I repotted this tree into a growbox. Removed a lot of bigger roots on the underside of the trunk. Those bigger roots came from an even bigger, horizontal root that is now on the bottom of growbox. There are lots of fine roots emerging from the trunk just below the surface of the soil.There is an obvious problematic root sticking out of the soil that feeds a lot of roots. This root is probably caused with the initial potting of this tree, five or six years ago. I plan on removing it gradually, if the tree starts growing.
Just above current soil level there is a scar of a big, removed root. It is the section of the trunk I would like to see roots. Would it be possible to make this tree to make roots there, by placing a mount of soil with sphagnum mos around it?
I didn't barerooted one side of the tree. I felt insecure because I already took of a lot of roots. I'll bareroot one side in two years, when I repot into a bonsaipot. And wil see if I can remove the big horizontal root on the bottom.

IMG_2951.JPG
Started with cutting down the plastic container

IMG_2957.JPG
a problematic root sticking out of the soil

IMG_2959.JPG
the reduced rootball

IMG_2966.JPG
potted up in a growbox, about 40 x 28 cm (16 x 11 inch)

IMG_2968.JPG
the akward root sticking out of the soil.
 

Adair M

Pinus Envy
Messages
11,239
Reaction score
23,820
Location
NEGeorgia
USDA Zone
7a
No comments at all? Is it that bad?
No, not that bad. You could have cut much more of the bottom of the root ball off. You could also cut off the “problematic” root. Since you had a lot of fine feeder roots, the tree wouldn’t miss it.

It looks like there were a bunch of long circling roots. I hope you cut them back!

It’s planted on a mound in your growbox. The grow biz is deep, the tree should have been planted deeper, so that there is no mound.

Potting is really difficult to teach over the Internet!

I will say that when I teach the potting class, the students are amazed at how much roots can be removed!
 
Messages
1,619
Reaction score
2,324
Location
Netherlands
Speechless, is that alright?
As for the roots, I'm not sure if that would work.
If there are any long circling roots, maybe you could approach or threadgraft those to the base? I'm just throwing in ideas, I'm sure someone else has better ideas.
 

Similar threads


Top Bottom