Dispell the bunk !!!

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I unlike quite a few folks here, I totally believe that advancing in one's
craft is all about the hours you put in. It is all about doing day in and
day out !!! Plain and simple... If you wire and style a 1,000 trees, you
kinda end up learning how to wire and style very nice trees.

Sadly, it is shallow and common thought here that you should have only
a handful of very good quality trees to work on, and only those...
Which is fine, I have those too, but I also have a ton more not so quality
trees to work on the other 360 days of the year. While they are fussing,
I am progressing, it is as simple as that. You can't possible get any better
by sitting watching leaves grow.

Besides, the more crappy the piece of stock is, the harder you have to work
on making it something nice. It may always end up being a piece of crap, but
that is not the point. The point is that you will take learn something much
more valuable than that of a nice tree... You will learn how to actually create
those nice trees !!! You will learn probably the most important aspect of Bonsai,
and that is how to set the basic foundations of a tree on it's way to becoming
a true bonsai. Which cannot possibly be learned on a piece of quality stock that
has these foundations already set and just needs some wire.

So, I say dispel the bunk !!! Especially if you are new to bonsai !!! Put the time
in, day in and day out... work on anything you can get your hands on and see how
far and fast you progress in such a short amount of time... It really pays off when
you start producing way better trees than that of those who have spent the last
eternity, fumbling with the 3 trees that they have.
Trust me !!!
 
sawgrass said:
I unlike quite a few folks here, I totally believe that advancing in one's
craft is all about the hours you put in. It is all about doing day in and
day out !!! Plain and simple... If you wire and style a 1,000 trees, you
kinda end up learning how to wire and style very nice trees.

Sadly, it is shallow and common thought here that you should have only
a handful of very good quality trees to work on, and only those...
Which is fine, I have those too, but I also have a ton more not so quality
trees to work on the other 360 days of the year. While they are fussing,
I am progressing, it is as simple as that. You can't possible get any better
by sitting watching leaves grow.
Click to expand...

I don't post a ton here and I don't presume to know the relationships (good and bad) of all the forum members...but are you referring to someone specific when you state the above? If so, maybe you could take it up with them through PM. While I agree with your post in terms of putting work in and owning trees in various states of development, I don't agree with starting your post in such a negative way. I respect your work and love tropicals too, but I don't want to see another thread take a dive to the negative side. Keep posting those pictures!
 
thams said:
I don't post a ton here and I don't presume to know the relationships (good and bad) of all the forum members...but are you referring to someone specific when you state the above? If so, maybe you could take it up with them through PM. While I agree with your post in terms of putting work in and owning trees in various states of development, I don't agree with starting your post in such a negative way. I respect your work and love tropicals too, but I don't want to see another thread take a dive to the negative side. Keep posting those pictures!
Click to expand...

Nope... no one in particular... as was stated This is a common view that has been
repeated here numerous times. Those who hold this view have the right to their
opinions, I just know they are wrong, and feel it is a shame that they are telling
folks new to bonsai this, and it is becoming common thought, as though it is some
sort of rule, that it is a must in order to be good a Bonsai... when in all actuality,
this could not be further from the truth.

Thanks, for the compliments regarding my work !!! I appreciate it !!!
I will keep posting more.
 
Also, thought I would add that your advice about PM folks,
Is a good one ! It sure beats talking trash about people on other
Sites throughout the bonsai community ! I think that PM someone
Would prevent them from looking like an ass.

Sorry... this is not referring to you Thams. You have always been
Sincere, thanks !
 
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I think what most people tell people is to buy high quality prebonsai stock. You still gain knowledge along the way, but in the end you have a better tree that you have spent all of that time developing. For example I bought a prebonsai black pine a couple of years ago for $1000. It will be 8 years before the tree can be a showable tree. That being said I also have seedlings out back.
 
jkd2572 said:
I think what most people tell people is to buy high quality prebonsai stock. You still gain knowledge along the way, but in the end you have a better tree that you have spent all of that time developing. For example I bought a prebonsai black pine a couple of years ago for $1000. It will be 8 years before the tree can be a showable tree. That being said I also have seedlings out back.
Click to expand...

Understand what you are saying... but, there have actually been big discussions, actually telling
People to limit their amount of trees to less than 10.
 
That's for lazy people......... I would be bored to death. I have as many as I have room for, which is exactly 72 feet of bench space. And a few odd spots. I like your work. Glad to see you back.
 
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Thanks for this thread. As a newb I agree comepletely with you. I have quite few "junk" trees. I did this on purpose for a few reasons, mostly to learn on, and so if I lose a tree I don't hurt my froogle bone too much. When I reach a point where I feel I will be able to create and maintain a high level bonsai then it's time for a serious investment/hardcore yamadori collection. I spend hours reading about, starting at, and caring for my trees. Having trees not typically used for bonsai allows a person to have a large number of trees for a low cost to learn with.
 
I agree in part. Yes, one should work on as many trees as possible. And after 35 years doing bonsai I still have about ten good trees and 100 not so good that I have fun working on. I. however, am dismayed by the majority of people I know in bonsai who are content to keep doing the same mediocre things with the same sub - par material for years and years. I think these people are in the majority. If that's fun for them, fine with me, but after all these years I strive to obtain the best material I can afford and I still take classes and workshops as often as possible to learn more.
You are absolutely correct that time spent practicing your art is almost always required to achieve skill. But I also believe what an former guitar teacher told me " practice makes perfect only with perfect practice", i.e. unless you're a genius or a prodigy, you need a teacher.
Junk trees have value for practicing basic skills, but if your goal is to create great bonsai, You must start with good material.

I'm a big Gladwell fan, by the way.
 
PaulH said:
I agree in part. Yes, one should work on as many trees as possible. And after 35 years doing bonsai I still have about ten good trees and 100 not so good that I have fun working on. I. however, am dismayed by the majority of people I know in bonsai who are content to keep doing the same mediocre things with the same sub - par material for years and years. I think these people are in the majority. If that's fun for them, fine with me, but after all these years I strive to obtain the best material I can afford and I still take classes and workshops as often as possible to learn more.
You are absolutely correct that time spent practicing your art is almost always required to achieve skill. But I also believe what an former guitar teacher told me " practice makes perfect only with perfect practice", i.e. unless you're a genius or a prodigy, you need a teacher.
Junk trees have value for practicing basic skills, but if your goal is to create great bonsai, You must start with good material.

I'm a big Gladwell fan, by the way.
Click to expand...
I would agree with some of your comments... I think that some of the trees you are discussing that are sub-par that folks are working on for years, is often due to the fact that some really wouldn't know what a nice tree is. Often they only know, because everyone else is saying it is a nice tree. Now I don't mean this in an offensive or insulting way, just kinda the way it is... Sometimes, yes, money can become a factor... and having great material does help. But, gotta say, some of my best trees that I won more awards on were pulled from my folks yard, seeing I still to this day help them with their yard. Their landscape has long been established. Nothing awesome coming out of their yard, but older
material, some with larger trunks...

I myself have taught myself how to paint... I myself taught myself how to do Bonsai..
I have never had a teacher. I learned along time ago, I don't learn well that way.
I have learned through trial and error. If I do something and it doesn't quite work, I then
figure out why and make sure not to repeat this mistake.
 
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sawgrass said:
Understand what you are saying... but, there have actually been big discussions, actually telling
People to limit their amount of trees to less than 10.
Click to expand...

Goodness, really?? I haven't seen any of those discussions, unless it was. A joke to advice for a specific individual who is out of town a lot or not able to care for many... Or perhaps they were saying "10 GOOD ones".... The rest under development... Kind of like you said...??

I have seen dozens of people post pics of their benches and unless they were brand new to the hobby and only had time to get a few sof are it seems we all wind up with the over crowded issue!! I know I do... It has happened to me twice already. When I first started about 15 years ago, I had about 50+ trees before I knew what had happened... Attrition, gifting some, realizing others would never turn into good bonsai as I learned more... Whittled down the number I had and over the past 4-5 years I have focused on increasing the quality of what I add. I am back up to about 50 now... Counting rooted cuttings and seedlings I guess. Hell, who CAN keep count at this point? LOL. "Keep it under 10" pfft... That is like buying a 6 pack and only drinking one!
 
Eric Group said:
Goodness, really?? I haven't seen any of those discussions, unless it was. A joke to advice for a specific individual who is out of town a lot or not able to care for many... Or perhaps they were saying "10 GOOD ones".... The rest under development... Kind of like you said...??

I have seen dozens of people post pics of their benches and unless they were brand new to the hobby and only had time to get a few sof are it seems we all wind up with the over crowded issue!! I know I do... It has happened to me twice already. When I first started about 15 years ago, I had about 50+ trees before I knew what had happened... Attrition, gifting some, realizing others would never turn into good bonsai as I learned more... Whittled down the number I had and over the past 4-5 years I have focused on increasing the quality of what I add. I am back up to about 50 now... Counting rooted cuttings and seedlings I guess. Hell, who CAN keep count at this point? LOL. "Keep it under 10" pfft... That is like buying a 6 pack and only drinking one!
Click to expand...
Ha, ha, ha... I swear !!!
There have been arguments here, about how you should clear out all the junk and only
concentrate on a handful of trees. With the number "10" being suggested.
I am not making this shit up ! I mean when I heard it, I thought it was the most ridiculous
thing I ever heard !!! I mean what happens if you had eleven ??? Are you only slightly
breaking the Bonsai Law ??

I don't know... perhaps those who were saying it would be willing to chime in ???
 
sawgrass said:
Ha, ha, ha... I swear !!!
There have been arguments here, about how you should clear out all the junk and only
concentrate on a handful of trees. With the number "10" being suggested.
I am not making this shit up ! I mean when I heard it, I thought it was the most ridiculous
thing I ever heard !!! I mean what happens if you had eleven ??? Are you only slightly
breaking the Bonsai Law ??

I don't know... perhaps those who were saying it would be willing to chime in ???
Click to expand...

Do you have a link to thread here where that was written
 
sawgrass said:
Ha, ha, ha... I swear !!!
There have been arguments here, about how you should clear out all the junk and only
concentrate on a handful of trees. With the number "10" being suggested.
I am not making this shit up ! I mean when I heard it, I thought it was the most ridiculous
thing I ever heard !!! I mean what happens if you had eleven ??? Are you only slightly
breaking the Bonsai Law ??

I don't know... perhaps those who were saying it would be willing to chime in ???
Click to expand...

Can you post a link to a thread here where that was written for advice ?

ed
 
I totally get what your saying...my being out of the country 2 weeks a year with no contact to the states or those caring for my home/bonsai/potted plants and pets. To be able to answer any questions that may come up. I have decided to limit myself to the amount I do have when it comes to bonsai. With talk of when the kids are grown...spending months out of the country for our mission work.

That said...I have a lot to consider...hardiness of a tree being for most and forgiving. The only one I really stressed over was my rosemary. Being over watered...I totally explained the trunk being a wick and you can see when it needs watered by it being dry and not showing dampness at the base.

Though...there is talk of turning the gazebo into a gardening room/building. Curious with all those windows that do open...If I could make something that would work for the trees with all that light that would keep them safe from winds...possibly with a watering system.

I do get your saying ones should have more trees to work on...practice makes perfect and all.
 
jkd2572 said:
I think what most people tell people is to buy high quality prebonsai stock. You still gain knowledge along the way, but in the end you have a better tree that you have spent all of that time developing. For example I bought a prebonsai black pine a couple of years ago for $1000. It will be 8 years before the tree can be a showable tree. That being said I also have seedlings out back.
Click to expand...

A - bloomin' - men! Start with crap, end with crap. If I've learned anything in 38 years of bonsai it is that.

Besides, I've got better use for my time than working on junk.
 
Here's where I disagree. If you are doing something wrong, doing it wrong for 10,000 hours doesn't make it right :) The earliest record I have of working on "bonsai" is from a journal I kept as a kid in 1974. I use quotes because I wasn't REALLY working on bonsai - I was simply hacking trees. I spent about 15 years hacking trees (wondering why I wasn't getting the results I saw in books) until I joined a bonsai society and started to learn from people who knew what they were doing. I learned more in one year than the prior 15.

The other place where I disagree is that more trees = better. Yes, if you can spend 10,000 hours working on trees that is great. But what if you have only 2000 hours? (because of real life, etc). Is it better to spread that 2000 hours over 2000 trees? Or 20? I don't think there is a single best answer. A show quality tree requires different care, and develops different skills, than a tree in early development. If all you have are trees in early development, you will not develop or improve refinement skills - you will be spending all your time doing trunk chops, repots, and rudimentary wiring. That is why you see so many beginners with pre-pre-pre bonsai trees getting the advice to "buy good pre-bonsai stock" - because otherwise you will be waiting 10 years (or more) before you actually start working on final refinement.

Are these absolute guidelines? Of course not. You can spend 15 years like me wacking trees, and you will learn many things - like how much abuse a tree can take, how many ways you can kill a tree by doing too much too quickly, etc. It will serve you well down the road. But I wish I had joined a bonsai society much earlier than I did. Learning from other people allowed me to leverage some of their 10,000 hours of experience - and start faster and develop faster than flying solo.
 
As with everything there is a happy medium. I do not believe in "extremes" which varies from person to person. I have more than 150 trees...some will say it is too much but I know someone who probably have 3 times than mine and I know some who only have one.

I agree with B-Nut that doing/practicing the same thing the wrong way won't help but doing various things on more trees will expose you to scenarios others may never face or will take years before they encounter.

I am on the practice makes perfect side (so I agree with Stacey also) and believe I am learning faster by having more trees. I try to use time to my advantage when possible. A seedling now will be a mature tree with time...if I get same seedling 10 years later...that is 10 years wasted (for that seedling - the way I see it).

That said, I know I will slowly thin the herd as some of my trees near being a proper bonsai. BTW, I might be disposing my "better" trees at that time since I tend to enjoy the development part than refining part (for now at least). Different strokes for... ;)
 
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