Do bonsai demos have value?

[sorce]

It depends!

Who's doing it?

If appropriate approaches are talked about during the demo by a well spoken Knowledgeable person, a lot can be learned.

Unfortunately, a poorly translated Japanese Master's demo, falls short because they also don't "do" demos.

I appreciate @Walter Pall "tree inspirations" because it is simply, truthful styling TALK, about any material, in any stage.

That said...

Its good to see wiring.

Any way it can be bad can only lead to a dead tree and a dead tree can be the best education an artist can get.

So long as they are observing attentively.

Sorce

 

[bwaynef]

At the recent National Shohin show, the interest in demos seemed generationally attended. The older generation seemed to make the best audience. Among those who have experience, the younger generation, whether due to attention spans or disinterest (and that's a pretty interesting discussion to be had), was scarcely represented.

There's nothing less interesting than seeing jins & sharis created during demo time. Watching a demonstrator wire is similarly uninteresting. I'll admit that most of what I find interesting about demos at a show is the raffle that follows. I would assume that in Japan, funding for the shows is handled in a different way, while our bonsai economy in America is not quite as developed, thereby necessitating raffles to provide the resources to continue to recoup costs.

 

[Gene Deci]

Once a few my fellow club members and I where looking at the material the guest artist was going to use for his demo. Someone said, "Seriously, what would you do with it?" We all did take it seriously and gave our responses with full explinations. So of course we paid close attention to what was actually done and why. Sometimes you have to have some skin in the game to come out ahead.

 

[Vance Wood]

Yes Demonstrations are a useful item. When I first started doing bonsai many years ago I had no clue how long it would take to style a tree. Therefore in order to get a styled tree I had to wait at least three years because I did not have the technique to do this or that and I simply had to wait. It stayed that way until people like Kimura spilled the beans to the fact that with the righ technique you could style a piece of raw material in a single afternoon and the tree would survive. This is why I am so intolerant of the "You can't do that" crowd.

 

[Adair M]

Yes Demonstrations are a useful item. When I first started doing bonsai many years ago I had no clue how long it would take to style a tree. Therefore in order to get a styled tree I had to wait at least three years because I did not have the technique to do this or that and I simply had to wait. It stayed that way until people like Kimura spilled the beans to the fact that with the righ technique you could style a piece of raw material in a single afternoon and the tree would survive. This is why I am so intolerant of the "You can't do that" crowd.

Sure you can, but it’s a risk. The tree might not survive. The trees that took you three years to complete, did survive, didn’t they?

Demo trees are often raffled off, or auctioned off. The lucky(?) winner may or may not have the skills/knowledge/facilities to give the tree the aftercare the tree needs after what is usually a pretty radical styling.

At Kannapolis, the Japanese presenter, after removing 75% of the foliage of an Itoigawa, said that this was as far as he wanted to go. He said he’d already removed 50% more foliage than he would have in Japan. But, he said, “he was in America”, so he went ahead and removed another 50% of what was left! Lol!!! Some idiot in the crowd then asked if he was afraid it was going to go juvenile! OMG!!! Of COURSE it would go junenile! The real question is whether it will live!!! (Unlikely.)

 

[Saddler]

At the recent National Shohin show, the interest in demos seemed generationally attended. The older generation seemed to make the best audience. Among those who have experience, the younger generation, whether due to attention spans or disinterest (and that's a pretty interesting discussion to be had), was scarcely represented.

I don’t think it’s either. It’s the availability of stability in life, time, and money. Most pets are easier to look after then a tree in a pot. Even with a house, family and being in my forties, stability is a precious commodity that I cherish and don’t take for granted. If things go sideways, my trees will be the first to suffer. How many Home Depot trees died only because of the conflict with simply living life?

 

[Tidal Bonsai]

At Kannapolis, the Japanese presenter, after removing 75% of the foliage of an Itoigawa, said that this was as far as he wanted to go. He said he’d already removed 50% more foliage than he would have in Japan. But, he said, “he was in America”, so he went ahead and removed another 50% of what was left! Lol!!! Some idiot in the crowd then asked if he was afraid it was going to go juvenile! OMG!!! Of COURSE it would go junenile! The real question is whether it will live!!! (Unlikely.)

This is the whole issue in a nutshell. Artists feel pressure to have a “finished” looking tree, because their reputations will be hurt if they set up a tree for the future in the demo, instead of the here and now.

 

[River's Edge]

My first concern with demo"s is the message it sends to the attendee's. This is the way bonsai are developed by doing this much work at one time! I believe this to be the opposite of professional practice.

The second concern i have, has already been mentioned, the tree are rarely properly prepared ahead of time. Actually i have found this to be the case in a lot of convention workshops as well. Not sure if the reason is budgetary or just lack of advance planning. i suppose it could also be lack of availability of quality material.

Generally due to the broad range of attendees the presentation gets watered down in order to present something for everyone in my opinion.

 

[AlainK]

This is the way bonsai are developed by doing this much work at one time! I believe this to be the opposite of professional practice.

You're quite right, but ay yhe same time, from the point of view of the learner, the "audience", it's the kind of summary you would get as a sophomore from a professor. Beginners can learn from those who have experience. Very often there has to be some concrete example for a lot of people to understand faster.

Demonstrators have to take shortcuts to promote the art.

the tree are rarely properly prepared ahead of time.

I don't think this is the point : more and more often, shows are prepared months in advance for the first event, years before after a few - sorry, fireworks starting

EDIT : I think that, at least now, the trees in demo are well-prepared, and as Leatherback said before, the aftercare is (also) essential.

 

[Tidal Bonsai]

I don’t think it’s either. It’s the availability of stability in life, time, and money. Most pets are easier to look after then a tree in a pot. Even with a house, family and being in my forties, stability is a precious commodity that I cherish and don’t take for granted. If things go sideways, my trees will be the first to suffer. How many Home Depot trees died only because of the conflict with simply living life?

Bingo!!!

Being 31, with a two (almost three) year old son, a wife, a house, a full time job, and a few side hustles, I want to make the most of my free time. I am very blessed because I do not travel much, my marriage is stable, my son is healthy, and I have some free time to spend on my trees.

I cannot speak to the hobby worldwide, but in my own club we have had a growing number of younger members like myself. Some of them attend demos by visiting artists, and others do not. To drive sometimes hours to see a visiting artist hack the shit out of a tree isn’t going to make nearly as much difference in MY trees as a workshop.

If I want to see a demo, I can watch one from any artist on the planet online. Then, I can rewind, pause, zoom in, share with other club members, etc. I know (insert famous bonsai persons name here) can pick a front, wire, prune, cut candles, etc., I need to be able to do it myself!

 

[Vance Wood]

According to some the modern demo should consist of taking the tree out of the nursery pot, say "Oh My, this tree is going to be a lot of work" and putting it back in the nursery pot, or poat if you watch certain InterNetVideos. I usually try to complete at least 80% of the work on a tree when I do a demo. I cannot remember the last time I lost a tree because I know enough to not take a tree beyond that which it will survive and doing the work at a time it should survive.

 

[Maloghurst]

In Japan they are much better at growing bonsai. they are styled and designed every step of the way. So in a 15 year old tree it already looks like a good bonsai and just needs to continue its development.
Here we take 15 year field grown or nursery material with much less methodical bonsai training throughout its life and then style it.
In japan there would be no reason to do this.

 

[JefeW]

So far I take everything I can get, so for a painfully new person, demos are very helpful. I am finding the discussion to be more helpful than watching technique, even with Mirai Live. That’s probably because I know how to garden so I connect much faster on the why. For the actual execution I’m not sure they do much for me. I’ve seen everything on wiring, still bad at it. Probably won’t be good at it until a few years into this.

 

[BrianBay9]

After the first couple of demo's I largely lost interest in everything EXCEPT :
1. Styling decisions explained
2. Horticultural information about a species I'm unfamiliar with

I would much rather have the time spent on critique of club members' trees, or details of a particular advanced technique.

 

[Deleted member 21616]

whether anyone thinks they have actually learned anything from attending one

i personally get a lot out of seeing somebody think out loud and in detail about their plan (short term and long term) for their tree

i much prefer it when they do it to one of my trees

 

[Lorax7]

Sometimes, the value of a demo is simply in being exposed to ideas & techniques that you knew nothing about; weren’t even aware that such a thing could be done to a living tree. For example, seeing someone stick a piece of re-bar into the soil, stabilize it with guy wires, and then wrap a big branch with raffia and use a guy wire attached to the re-bar to gradually winch that big branch into a new position. That was an eye-opener. Before I saw that, I was unaware that such a maneuver was even in the realm of possibility. Likewise, before I saw it being done, it would not have occurred to me that you could move a jin by wiring it, protecting the surrounding foliage with wet washcloths, spraying the jin with water, and then steaming the jin by heating it with a blowtorch, and bending it into place.

 

[River's Edge]

Sometimes, the value of a demo is simply in being exposed to ideas & techniques that you knew nothing about; weren’t even aware that such a thing could be done to a living tree. For example, seeing someone stick a piece of re-bar into the soil, stabilize it with guy wires, and then wrap a big branch with raffia and use a guy wire attached to the re-bar to gradually winch that big branch into a new position. That was an eye-opener. Before I saw that, I was unaware that such a maneuver was even in the realm of possibility. Likewise, before I saw it being done, it would not have occurred to me that you could move a jin by wiring it, protecting the surrounding foliage with wet washcloths, spraying the jin with water, and then steaming the jin by heating it with a blowtorch, and bending it into place.

What they did not explain was that most of the time the effect was temporary unless the restraining wire is left on for a very long time! Think one year at least.

 

[bwaynef]

At the recent National Shohin show, the interest in demos seemed generationally attended. The older generation seemed to make the best audience. Among those who have experience, the younger generation, whether due to attention spans or disinterest (and that's a pretty interesting discussion to be had), was scarcely represented.

There's nothing less interesting than seeing jins & sharis created during demo time. Watching a demonstrator wire is similarly uninteresting. I'll admit that most of what I find interesting about demos at a show is the raffle that follows. I would assume that in Japan, funding for the shows is handled in a different way, while our bonsai economy in America is not quite as developed, thereby necessitating raffles to provide the resources to continue to recoup costs.

Just to clarify, I didn't select (all the) words well in my earlier post. What I meant to say was, "Among those who have experience among the younger generation..." How I'd written it above, it seemed as if I was saying that the younger generation had all the experience. I worded that poorly.

I don’t think it’s either. It’s the availability of stability in life, time, and money. Most pets are easier to look after then a tree in a pot. Even with a house, family and being in my forties, stability is a precious commodity that I cherish and don’t take for granted. If things go sideways, my trees will be the first to suffer. How many Home Depot trees died only because of the conflict with simply living life?

My quote, ...that I've just tried to clarify, ...was based on my observations at the National Shohin show. There was QUITE a distinction among the attendees of the demos. There WERE plenty of young folks with enough stability in their life to attend the show. The demos seemed to be less integral to their enjoyment of the show than ...the vendors, the show, the bonding with likeminded folks, ...getting in line for the korean bbq food truck. I'm not exactly sure all the reasons. I tried to look in on most of the demonstrations, but sometimes I'd seen enough of the jin creation to know what the next few minutes were going to hold. So I'd take another lap around the show or the vendor area and end up bumping into someone and having an interesting conversation.

My mention

 

[River's Edge]

I have found the most value in attending the show are the critiques as explained by the judges. Varying opinions and differrent focus helps to explore options in styling.
Generally avoid the demos, particularily those who talk about themselves rather than the tree and the process. The recent trend to establish brand is so blatant at times i am surprised it still works!
Vendors are often a fantastic source of inspiration in growing techniques, tools and supply insights.
I would like to see practise sessions for specific techiques and essential skills! Small group, hands on, guided practice!

 

[Doug J]

In Japan they are much better at growing bonsai. they are styled and designed every step of the way. So in a 15 year old tree it already looks like a good bonsai and just needs to continue its development.
Here we take 15 year field grown or nursery material with much less methodical bonsai training throughout its life and then style it.
In japan there would be no reason to do this.

Japan. It's Japan. You should have capitalized in paragraph two.