Do you buy raw bonsai stock from traditional garden center retailers?

[Attila Soos]

Your example of Jim Gremel is narrow, as is the white pine example. Just because something has a high price does not mean it has quality.

There we go again.

I did NOT say that high price assures quality.

I said that Jim Gremel's Altlas Cedar is highly priced BECAUSE it is of high quality. High quality in Jim's case translates into high price. He also has less expensive material. The reason for this is that those less expensive trees are of lower quality.

Regarding those white pines: Why do you think those pines sold for over $1,000?
Answer: because they were of show quality.

Do you see the relationship?

...and yes, before you answer, I can say it myself: High price does not automatically assures quality. I know that, so no need to repeat it.

 

[Attila Soos]

And again, if Jim sold his Cedar for 100 bucks, does that take away from the quality? Hardly, it just means someone got a great deal.

Think about it,

There we go again, with the parallel talk. If Jim Gremel gave his cedar away for free, it does NOT mean that it is low quality. It would just mean that Jim likes to give away his money to others for charity. We can all give away our high quality trees for nothing, if we chose to.

Here is the reality: Jim will NOT sell his high quality cedar for $100. No ifs and buts. He will sell his trees for whatever the market pays for it. The market will pay more for his high quality trees, and less for his low quality trees.

And yes, let me repeat it mysefl: High price does not assure high quality!

 

[Attila Soos]

High prices does not automatically assure quality. Low prices does not automatically assure crap. Location does not assure quality or crap. The concept is easy to understand.

Take your bonsai nursery, real imagined, whatever....I'll promise you there are a least a few pieces overpriced and a few under-priced.

All the above is correct. All the above has nothing to do with the price-quality relationship.

The pricing of the trees in the bonsai nursery is based on the seller's perception of value. The seller's perception of value is driven by several factors, one of the most important factor is the seller's perception of quality. If he thinks that one tree is of higher quality than the other, he will generally price it for more.

There are times when you get something much cheaper than what the tree would normally sell for. Like in any other business, the bonsai business employs marketing tactics: Loss leaders, Discounted Sales, Specials, etc, to attract buyers. Again, this has nothing to do with price-quality issues. This is called marketing. The seller will choose to sell a few items below what he perceives as fair value, but he is not going to to this with his whole inventory.

The bonsai business is just like any other business that sells goods and services. High quality has its price. One can't expect to pay the same for the best, and for the crap. It doesn't matter whether we are talking about cars or bonsai. If I want the best car, the fastest, the best engineering, the latest technology, durability, it is going to cost me more than what I pay for a mediocre product.

 

[Tachigi]

.. in the case of trees I support your argument, but in the example above (screens) why such a mark up? Not every vendor out there (bonsai or otherwise) are always ethical. The price I paid for screening material was at a retail price, an ethical vendor can still acquire this screening material at retail prices if you wish, mark it up for his troubles, make a profit, and still sell it at a more reasonable price, than if it was called "bonsai screen". Another example would be "bonsai fertilizer", and I'm sure there are many more examples where price has been dictated by the "bonsai industry" so to speak.

Rick, I do exactly what you mentioned. I offer bulk screen material that comes from a commercial hardware source, the customer can buy it by the foot, this is a very inexpensive commodity. I also offer the nice neat little packages of screen with those cute little Japanese letters, more in line with what you mentioned in your example. They both stand side by side for the customer to choose as he pleases. 8 out of 10 customers take the packaged screen at the higher price. I don't benefit one way or the other as my profit margin is the same on either item. Obviously if you pick a package and have it shipped from Japan then its gonna cost more.

Out of curiosity we did sort of a poll on why a person buys one thing over another. Those 8 people I mentioned liked the packaging and felt that it was more suitable for bonsai. When questioned why all responded that it obviously was made for bonsai and that because of the Japanese lettering it was better qualified to serve the task.

I swear I am not making this up! It may not make sense, but that is the mentality of a vast majority of enthusiasts. This is why you find most vendors selling items like this at prices that seem obscene. The people want it, sooooo, its sold. I am hard pressed to steer a customer in another direction to obtain supplies that don't have some reference to Japan.

BTW: When I was in the boat business the same applied. If it came from a marine supply house it cost more. An example would be a piece of bilge hose. You could go to a hardware store and buy it for .50 a foot and a 1.00 a foot at the marine supply store. People would do this because it made them feel better knowing that it came from a source that dealt strictly with items for boats.

 

[Rick Moquin]

Tom,

Thanks for the reply, which absolutely astonishes me. What more can I say. I'm well just speechless.

I know most businesses have a given % markup on all their items, some have a floating % dependent on what the item is (at reception, not POS). Now I have heard in the past discriminant customers state this about ferts, but on screens? Oh well, at least we know there is still bargains out there. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Smoke]

I've noticed time and time again, that when people start losing an argument, they start mixing up all the factors, and then using the newly created scenarios to prove their point.

Man I wish I had a buck everytime that has happened to me. I could buy one of those overpriced Atlas cedars from Jim for 2800.00 bucks

 

[Anonymous User]

Attila,

I think I see the problem we are having, you are arguing that quality dictates price, in most cases, giving the seller is knowledgeable, I agree.

However, I am arguing that price does not dictate quality.


Quality dictates price.
Price does not dictate quality.

Not quite the same thing at all, in fact when said together, it sums up my thoughts well.

For the record, in response to your words, "I've noticed time and time again, that when people start losing an argument, they start mixing up all the factors, and then using the newly created scenarios to prove their point." I have not mixed up a single factor, nor created senarios that swayed from my point, which is now, and always has been, price does not assure quality, location does not assure quality, quality is in the stock selected, not in the price or location purchased. Same point, all the way through both threads, and just as valid.

I am however, quite disappointed that you claimed such.





Will

 

[Anonymous User]

Tom, Rick,

Speaking of screen....I don't purchase screen from bonsai shops, stores, or anywhere else. For the last four years I have used nothing but drywall patching mesh tape. It is fiberglass so it won't decay. It is self adhesive so it will stick right to the inside of the pot, no need to wire it in. It comes in 50' rolls for about a buck and a half, just roll out a couple inches and cut with scissors, stick on and add soil.

Wiring through the drainage holes will require holding the screen while you push the wire through, but most quality pots these days have wire holes anyhow.

Cheap, easy to use, works like a charm.



Will

 

[Jay Wilson]

Will,
You seem to use these opinions interchangably.


Price has absolutly nothing to do with quality.


Price does not automatically assure quality.


I see a huge difference in the two. Maybe others also see a difference and hence the debate goes on.

People tend to disagree with the first opinion and tend to agree with the second.

 

[Anonymous User]

Jay,

They are both true.

 

[Tachigi]

For the last four years I have used nothing but drywall patching mesh tape. It is fiberglass so it won't decay. It is self adhesive so it will stick right to the inside of the pot, no need to wire it in.

That is an alternative Will. I started using that 6 years ago. I did have a bit of a problem as time passed with it. Over time the adhesive gave way from water, heat, and cold. Due it being thin I found that the roots had a tendency to lift it up. This in turn created a void letting some soil leakage. So I discontinued use of it on some trees. I still incorporate it in pots for new material or collected material that need time to recover. Still all and all a good tip.

It just occurred to me I am straying off topic...my apologize