Do you come to a discussion forum for the truth or an attaboy?

Smoke

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I come for both. Not so much at this forum but the many others in which I belong to.

As a regular poster here, I feel that I am sort of one of the old gaurd. Someone that has posted well over 15,000 posts over 16 years. I have started many educational threads showing bonsai work over a great many subjects. there are many many others that have done the same over the years, many of them I have interacted with over from the beginning of the 16 years like Mark Rockwell (RockM), and Vance Wood.

With a record like that I see no reason to beat around the bush. I read all the posts, I don't respond to many. I respond to those that seem sincere in their attainment of knowledge and where I feel I can contribute towrds their education such that it is, in a meaningfull way with out all the rhetoric. Just get to the bottom line, your wasting your time or, hey, this could be something if you did this.

While I might not be a newbie here, I am very much a newbie all over the net. I belong to many forums where my total post count is less than fifty. But I can tell you this, that fifty posts stands for something.

Let me tell you what I do.

Over the last few years I have expanded my interests to many things other than bonsai. For years I was a reefer, spending many decades in the coral reef aqaurium trade working with a partner in developing trickle filters and backpak type filters and protien skimmers for reefs. I used my woodworking skills in buying some plexi tools for my tablesaw and router and we began the garage manufacture of trickle filters all thru the lates seventies and into the early ninties. We sold well over 1000 filters during that time. While 1000 aqaurium filters does not seem like much, 1000 filters in 1985 was about what seemed like half the industry. 1000 reef tanks in America in 1985 was alot! Infancy almost. In 1985 acropora was a pipe dream!

Several years ago I began buying Japanese scrolls for the display of bonsai. I was daunted, there were so many and I had no idea what the appropriate scroll was needed for what I wanted to do. I began asking questions and emailing people in the know. looking for the tidbits of information I would need that would lead me in making sound buying decisions in a collection of usable scrolls. Scrolls are not cheap, virtually unreturnable, cost a lot of money to ship and take a long time to get here. I did not want to waste a lot of money on stupid purchases. I asked around on who to go to to get my questions answered. I was told to seek out Kathy Shaner as well as Larry and Nina Ragle and of course Hideko Metaxis. I gleened every bit of information I could from these people.

before I go on......bonsai people, as well as arrowhead people, Paleolithic people, reef people and any other hobby endeaver are usually overjoyed to take someone under their wing if they are really interested in being mentored. They will give up what they know for free and are only rewarded with your undying gratitude. There are bucket loads of PM's from people here asking personal advice about things of whaich I always answer and many times paragraphs of information on why and how to do something.

A year and a half ago I started collecting Ancient Greek and Roman coins. I belong to a few forums. i have always Pm'ed the moderators and asked who the guys in the know are. Who can I trust. I PM those people and explain what I need. I have always gotten very responsive facts from these people that are really taken with someone with enough inititive to seek out a personal helper and ask their opinion about shopping for coins. I learned so much that I was able to seek out the really good deals and spend a little more on the better coins that made my collection better rather than buying fifty filler coins that I eventually give to schools for history lessons.

Do you really want to buy a hundred club raffle trees and call that a collection? Wouldn't it be more prudent to seek the advice of half a dozen people in the know and get a yea or a nay before plunking down $50.00 on a loser?

In the last year and a half I began collecting arrowheads and Paleolithics from the stone age all the way back to Oldowan up to the Woodland period.

Let me explain, when a person is going to plunk down 500.00 for a Oldowan Pebble chopper over 2 million years old or an Acheulean hand axe over 1 million years old or arterian points knappped by Neanderthalis 50,000 year ago, you have to do some homework and find out who is selling credible stuff and who are selling fakes.

I began burning up the internet, finding the people who could send me to the right people. When I inquired about what I wanted to do, I was blown away at how people would open up and tell me the old tag line " I wish I could have had this resource when I wasted a bunch of money". They were more that willing to share all they had. I had PDF files coming in from people from all over the world that give lectures at Universaties and had written important papers published in antquities magazines all over the place.

These people all have one thing in common. They have ego's as big as all outdoors. They understand that they have spent a lifetime understanding and going through the pains of discovering the ins and outs of their craft. They have much to offer. They are more than willing to give it up freely.

All one has to do is ask, not be afraid of the truth and say thank you.

Trust me they can't wait to tell you all they know. All you have to do is take it all in and save a bunch of time and money in the process.

It's your call.
 
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I always enjoy your honesty and advice. I hate it when people tell people that a horrible tree is good.. Those people go on believing it.. I would rather here the truth with ideas on how to make it better even if its never going to be great. Thanks again for all of you constructive input and advice.
 
I come for both.

It's your call.

I agree entirely. Having had several interests over the years depending on my life stage, and belonging to several forums over those years has taught me some things - don't be afraid to ask questions when you are new (as I am here). This allows the more experienced people to get to know you, and starts to give you a feel for the kind of responses you will get. It doesn't take long to figure out who to pay attention to!

Bonsai is a new interest for me, and I fully expect to grow some not so great ones over the next few years - but hopefully they will improve and most importantly I expect to enjoy the journey!
 
Alone in the wild

I live in an area that, while it has enthusiasts, does not really have the support that I would like so far as bonsai as an art form and hobby. I have a few friends who enjoy looking at my trees but when I start gushing over this trunk or that root, they kind of faze out. I really do not blame them, the only person who ever shared my enthusiasm for trees was my father (God rest his soul).

I have been in the hobby for a little over a decade and a half. Over that time, I have experimented, killed, read, and generally muddled along. I was getting somewhat discouraged in regards to long term successes. I had reached a point where personal experimentation and research had reached its limit and needed advice from people who had already made the same mistakes or had better successes.

That being said, I would have to say I come here for both. I think this is a viable thing since we cannot expand our own knowledge base without interaction with others. As far as the attaboys goes...while I tend to lean towards internal goals and encouragement...it is sometimes nice to have a fellow bonsaist say "Hey, that is pretty good." even if it comes with constructive criticism.
 
I like straight shooters. Most do not like it though and I myself usually get in trouble for telling it as I see it.

I guess I need some lessons from our politicians to be liked more. :D

By the way...my stand is in my sig line...
"Comments and critique always welcome. No need to sugar coat, brutal truth welcome & encouraged."
 
i once had a professor in gad school whose favorite line was "harsh words break no bones and fine words butter no parsnips"
its all in the delivery.
i like straight shooters as well you get to where you gotta be much faster
al calls em like he sees em and with the history and knowledge he has he sees much further and faster then many thats part of the problem here.
not many are able to see where and how to get something farther faster like al. many of us live in our own little bubble where we think we are moving forward, we are just much slower
thanks al.
 
I get the impression that you are leaving bonsai?
 
I come mostly for truth, and wisdom. It is nice to get a deserved bit of praise, but not really my focus. I also come to help others, and hope I do some of that as well.

I have found the most helpful advice here has been given by the straightforward amongst the learned. Constructive criticism is the most appropriate use of this and other forums.

I agree that the point is to help people see what is the real good and bad in what they are asking about, it is fine to be blunt, but that is not everyones style or strong suit.

something about catching more bees with honey than vinegar???

I think that everyone helps in their own way, at their own tier of knowledge. I thank those who have given of themselves to further my learning.:)
 
Smoke, I want to thank you for that. It's about time someone put those thoughts in writing.
There are some people on this forum that have so much to offer. I go back and read all of their earlier posts. Just one example: Vance on mugho pine.

The knowledge is here and people have go seek it out. It doesn't take long to find the people who REALLY KNOW.
Thanks again.
Joedes
 
I come for KNOWLEDGE and guidance. I realize I am a total novice at bonsai and have made so many of the mistakes others have made starting out. I am not here to received praise as I know my trees are not there yet and may never be; however, I am trying to learn how to be better today than I was yesterday and even better tomorrow.

I tend to say things as I see them; however, I have learned that if I cannot be positive in any matter it is probably better for me to remain silent.

I have a good friend in our local club who will say things such as "I wish you had not bought this tree" but he never tells me why I should not have bought the tree or what I should have been looking to find. I asked another friend, Brian Van Fleet, what he thought of a tree I was considering and his immediate reponse was "don't buy it." I asked Brian what he was seeing I did not and his response made total sense to me. He said that the tree in question did not measure up to the quality trees I was trying to acquire and that any purchase should improve my collection rather than just being another tree.

Care to guess which friend I turn to for advice and guidance?

Smoke, I really like your thought on sending a PM to those whose advice you really are wanting and needing. This, I think, is probably a much better way of getting the facts and guidance one is needing.
 
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I come to the forums for different viewpoints and new ideas. If I post a tree, I'm looking for truthful opinions. Telling me that a weak tree "looks good" is not helpful. Similarly, telling me that it is a piece of &%$* with no further explanation doesn't really help either. Tell me what you see that is wrong/bad and how (if) it might be improved. Remember that the delivery and tone of your (speaking generally, not only to smoke) response is also important.

Similarly...advanced members should not be offended when someone questions their advice. This is a discussion forum! You may not always be "right". In fact, often there is more than one "right".

Chris
 
I like this forum for its wealth of knowledge. It is like an encyclopedia. Sporadic and random, but extremely valuble for the bonsai enthusiast who has niether a local club, nor no time to join one. This place also serves as a souding board for the bonsai comunity, where a question can be answered from many differnt sources with many different approaches, allowing the asker to glean an answer by consensus... even if the consensus is still in deep divide.
 
Just curious, now that I think about it, why would you need to PM someone for advice or critique on this forum? I thought that this is what I was doing when posting threads for advice or critique or ideas. Is it bad form to just ask out loud? I have never had the brass to go straight to the message service, guess I thought that was a bit - presumptuous.

But I guess maybe I've been doing it wrong.??
 
Just curious, now that I think about it, why would you need to PM someone for advice or critique on this forum? I thought that this is what I was doing when posting threads for advice or critique or ideas. Is it bad form to just ask out loud? I have never had the brass to go straight to the message service, guess I thought that was a bit - presumptuous.

But I guess maybe I've been doing it wrong.??

Just thinkin out loud...but if you could have the services of any artist in the world for one day to work on each tree you have and go over its bad points and its good points, and their future, which international artist would you choose and why.

EDIT: I explained my method for getting what I want. Many people are shy about posting trees here. If you posted ten trees here and I ripped everyone of them by being brutally honest would you continue to post trees here? I can see people that post trees here and "are" improving them and feel no need to tell someone they are wasting their time, eventhough they may be. People do bonsai for many reasons other than trying to produce art in my eyes, and I can respect that.

...but...every so often someone will come here and post something and ask for advice publicly and I have no problem giving them an honest assessment. I wouldn't want it any other way. I have had people PM me from this site that have never posted a tree before and ask me my opinion about the tree, cause they do not wish to have the laundry publicly aired for all to see. I can respect that too.

I'm just telling people what I do to get the information I need without all the hoorah and just get to the meat of the thing. My other hobbies include very tangible items, ancient coins and artifacts. the info about them is fairly short and sweet and works across the board for all, a bonsai not so much. If someone from Michigan asked me how to ready his trees for his first winter as a new budding bonsai artist I would honestly tell them I have no clue. What I do and he will have to do is not the same as keeping an arrowhead in a nice Riker mount in the office for thirty years. It does not die!
 
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Just thinkin out loud...but if you could have the services of any artist in the world for one day to work on each tree you have and go over its bad points and its good points, and their future, which international artist would you choose and why.



I'm just telling people what I do to get the information I need without all the hoorah and just get to the meat of the thing.

I think it might have to be someone like Valavanis, because it seems that he's a teacher at heart. Learning from a person who is strictly an artist would not be necessarily as productive as learning from an artist who is also a teacher. Unless you get a year instead of a day. Then the learning would come from intuitive means, as you'd get to know them and learn from what they are doing instead of just from what they are saying.

Without the hoorah, unless there is some reason you want to keep it private, then the rest of us miss out on the learning that is taking place behind PM doors...
 
Without the hoorah, unless there is some reason you want to keep it private, then the rest of us miss out on the learning that is taking place behind PM doors...

I agree. Also, not everyone is as knowledgeable (and as good a resource) as you. I would hate for someone be stirred wrongly by another and no one can correct it since it is in private. Forum's strength is the mass exposure...people learn simultaneously and can correct a mistake instantly as well. For me, both can be a learning process.

I hope more share here...even the mistakes as lessons learned. :) Though this could be embarrassing, it is a very powerful teaching tool...it really sticks!!!
 
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