Does grafting on a collected RMJ add value?

[SantaFeBonsai]

Would you rather see a rmj with its original foliage, albeit a little spindly, stay true to its roots or grafted with a Japanese cultivar essentially becoming a hybrid of sorts? Does grafting add value over the original foliage? Seeing kishu on a rmj looks too perfect for me and not natural. I personally like the whimsically look of collected rmj foliage.

It has been suggested that grafting would be the best option with a rmj I just purchased. This would add several years to the project,,, or we could style now and have a legit tree.

 

[M. Frary]

I want to become proficient at grafting so I can use these native species. Kishu on that would look great. Just as Scots or Mugo would on ponderoso pine and hinoki foliage on eastern white cedar and maybe JWP onto eastern white pine.
There are lots of great trunks to be had out there but on most of the trees I've listed their natural foliage unappealing to me. Too big. Too coarse. Too wispy.
In the end it's your tree. What appeals to you the most should be the deciding factor. Not some guy half a continent away.

 

[Wilson]

For that tree I would personally work with the natural foliage. It doesn't appear to be out of hand, long spindly foliage. I also prefer wild trees.

 

[Dav4]

I've been working with 3 collected RMJ for over a decade. My opinion is that you should work with the native foliage if you can... but don't hesitate to graft if the foliage never responds adequately to proper technique or is more prone to pathogens in your given local. Out of my 3 RMJ, one will likely never be grafted, one has grafts on it right now, and another will hopefully get some grafts to stick in the next few years. Life is too short to chronically fight crappy foliage or mediocre plant health.

 

[yenling83]

I like both. I'd like my collection to be made up of both Native Junipers with Native foliage and some with Kishu grafted on. I would imagine that in general, as of today you would earn slightly more money selling a tree with Kishu, Itoigawa or Tosho depending on the character of the trunk. But if you were just going to sell the tree, it's probably not worth the extra time and effort to graft-I could be wrong. For my personal collection, i'm grafting approx half of my trees with a nice quality Kishu because it does better than Itoigawa where I live. I'm currently grafting all my small trees and any trees with other trees with weepy or larger than average foliage for the species. It will be great once we find some native juniper chance seedlings to propagate with high quality foliage for the species. I'd want to graft some of my natives with a better quality native foliage.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I'll vote for working it as is. Definitely try to work with you have. just bring the foliage down and around could be a real nice effect. Sure the foliage isn't at thick, but that will let you see the bad@ss deadwood better.

 

[Adair M]

I have a Western Juniper I grafted Kishu onto. The original foliage was really spindly.

The old Western branches make great dead wood!

 

[MichaelS]

I think in the long run, the tree might hold more value in it's wild state. I'm sure there is a way to slowly bring the foliage into a compact development.. Small pot, not too much nitrogen, full sun, long repotting intervals etc. I would only graft if it's completely unavoidable.
Are there dwarf cultivars of scopulorum you could use? My conifer encyclopedia shows J. s. ''Hillborn's Silver Globe'' could be one to use if you are going to graft and keep the species integrity.

 

[MACH5]

My preference by far is to keep RMJs as they come. Love them as they are. With that said, I have one tree that I plan on grafting kishu on it next year. But this will be more of a unique exception for me.

 

[Ry2Tree2]

I want to become proficient at grafting so I can use these native species. Kishu on that would look great. Just as Scots or Mugo would on ponderoso pine and hinoki foliage on eastern white cedar and maybe JWP onto eastern white pine.
There are lots of great trunks to be had out there but on most of the trees I've listed their natural foliage unappealing to me. Too big. Too coarse. Too wispy.
In the end it's your tree. What appeals to you the most should be the deciding factor. Not some guy half a continent away.

How is it that the native Japanese species have most all the best foliage types for being compact? (Scots and mugo being the exception from your list, but black, red, and white pine grafts are still good japanese pine graft options.)

I think there's something respectable about using the native foliage of the tree - aside from aesthetic preferences - and trying to learn how to use it best. In some cases there are definitely still secrets there we can discover, whereas the Japanese foliage types have been thoroughly figured out regardint how to manage them.

Here in Seattle this conflict is more significant to me as a health issue for some ponderosa pines and RMJs with their native foliage are often less vigorous and more disease susceptible than the climates where these species are native. Here it is too wet and there are some diseases that lost their natural predator in some as well. It's a topic I am still exploring, but grafting RMJ with shimpaku or ponderosa with black pine foliage appears to totally solve the issues I described based on my observations of Dan Robinson trees. I might mess with grafting native shore pine to ponderosa instead and see what happens, but eventually it may be clear that they have very different bark.

 

[Adair M]

I think in the long run, the tree might hold more value in it's wild state. I'm sure there is a way to slowly bring the foliage into a compact development.. Small pot, not too much nitrogen, full sun, long repotting intervals etc. I would only graft if it's completely unavoidable.
Are there dwarf cultivars of scopulorum you could use? My conifer encyclopedia shows J. s. ''Hillborn's Silver Globe'' could be one to use if you are going to graft and keep the species integrity.

Michael,

I know you haven’t had the opportunity to see these American Junipers in person. The foliage varies wildly. Even with a given species. One will have nice tight foliage, and the one right next to it on the mountain might have coarse jangly foliage. The decision on whether to change the foliage is not taken lightly, and it’s usually done on a tree by tree basis.

And, there may be other reasons to change the foliage: California Juniper foliage is usually loose, and large. It works on big trees, but a Shohin or slightly bigger tree, it looks out of scale. Nice small trunks often get shimpaku grafted on for scale.

Rocky Mountain Juniper stinks! Literally! It smells like cat pee! After working with it, you smell like cat pee! If you had several benches of them, your yard would smell like cat pee!

There’s another variety that smells like dirty laundry. You know, like mildew? Yuck!

Western juniper foliage is sticky with sap. All the time.

And then, maybe you’ve collected a great trunk, but there are no usable low branches. To get them, you’re going to have to graft. Would you graft on the same tree’s foliage? Or opt for something more refined?

Decisions, decisions...

 

[MACH5]

Rocky Mountain Juniper stinks! Literally! It smells like cat pee! After working with it, you smell like cat pee! If you had several benches of them, your yard would smell like cat pee!

There’s another variety that smells like dirty laundry. You know, like mildew? Yuck!

I have also heard that from Bill. Not sure if my sense of smell is tricking me or I have gotten lucky or my trees regularly bathed more, but I have had many RMJs throughout the years and none have smelled bad to me! Go figure.

 

[Adair M]

How is it that the native Japanese species have most all the best foliage types for being compact? (Scots and mugo being the exception from your list, but black, red, and white pine grafts are still good japanese pine graft options.)

I think there's something respectable about using the native foliage of the tree and trying to learn how to use it best. In some cases there are definitely still secrets there we can discover, whereas the Japanese foliage types have been thoroughly figured out regardint how to manage them.

Here in Seattle this conflict is more significant to me as ponderosa pines and RMJs with their native foliage are often less vigorous and more disease susceptible than the climates where these species are native. Here it is too wet and there are some diseases that lost their natural predator in some as well. It's a topic I am still exploring, but grafting RMJ with shimpaku or ponderosa with black pine foliage appears to totally solve the issues I described based on my observations of Dan Robinson trees. I might mess with grafting native shore pine to ponderosa instead and see what happens, but eventually it may be clear that they have very different bark.

Also consider your climate. Most of the American Junipers live in semi arid locations. Seattle is the opposite. Same with Ponderosa pine.

Japan, on the other hand, is more humid and wet. More like Seattle.

 

[Adair M]

I have also heard that from Bill. Not sure if my sense of smell is tricking me or I have gotten lucky or my trees regularly bathed more, but I have had many RMJs throughout the years and none have smelled bad to me! Go figure.

Lack of a sense of smell is an early sign of dementia!

Lol!!!

I hear ya, but if you go places where there are a lot of them, you’ll notice.

 

[Dav4]

Michael,

I know you haven’t had the opportunity to see these American Junipers in person. The foliage varies wildly. Even with a given species. One will have nice tight foliage, and the one right next to it on the mountain might have coarse jangly foliage. The decision on whether to change the foliage is not taken lightly, and it’s usually done on a tree by tree basis.

And, there may be other reasons to change the foliage: California Juniper foliage is usually loose, and large. It works on big trees, but a Shohin or slightly bigger tree, it looks out of scale. Nice small trunks often get shimpaku grafted on for scale.

Rocky Mountain Juniper stinks! Literally! It smells like cat pee! After working with it, you smell like cat pee! If you had several benches of them, your yard would smell like cat pee!

There’s another variety that smells like dirty laundry. You know, like mildew? Yuck!

Western juniper foliage is sticky with sap. All the time.

And then, maybe you’ve collected a great trunk, but there are no usable low branches. To get them, you’re going to have to graft. Would you graft on the same tree’s foliage? Or opt for something more refined?

Decisions, decisions...

I have also heard that from Bill. Not sure if my sense of smell is tricking me or I have gotten lucky or my trees regularly bathed more, but I have had many RMJs throughout the years and none have smelled bad to me! Go figure.

I actually LOVE the aroma of my RMJ's, and particular my really big one. It's been to the Asheville show a few times, and remembering how my van smelled during the 4 + hour drive up and back always brings a smile to my face.



... and before @Adair M says it, it has nothing to do with me being a vet.

 

[Ry2Tree2]

Also consider your climate. Most of the American Junipers live in semi arid locations. Seattle is the opposite. Same with Ponderosa pine.

Japan, on the other hand, is more humid and wet. More like Seattle.

Sad, but true. Interestingly some individual RMJs and ponserosas around the garden show no ill effect at all to our local climate while others struggle. I would be very interested to take grafts from successful RMJ or ponderosa transplants onto those that struggle and see if that solves their problems. If this graft from the same species does solve the tree's problems, this may indicate some wet climate tolerance in the genetic diversity of the species. If the interspecies grafts don't solve any provlems, it suggests more of a random disease distribution around the garden as is expected to be observed in any population. (There is a rule in parisitology that could apply here where 80% of the parasites or disease burden is found in 20% of the population. It is driven classically by a combination if random chance, spatial considerations, and variation in resistance in the population.)

 

[Adair M]

I actually LOVE the aroma of my RMJ's, and particular my really big one. It's been to the Asheville show a few times, and remembering how my van smelled during the 4 + hour drive up and back always brings a smile to my face.



... and before @Adair M says it, it has nothing to do with me being a vet.

@Dav4 /USER], must I repeat my post I directed at Sergio?

 

[Dav4]

@Dav4 /USER], must I repeat my post I directed at Sergio?

I love the smell of cat pee in the morning!

 

[Ry2Tree2]

Lack of a sense of smell is an early sign of dementia!

Lol!!!

I hear ya, but if you go places where there are a lot of them, you’ll notice.

If that is true then I am in for some really early onset dementia. I heard in the rain the RMJs smell like cat piss, but I could never smell it to save my life. My nose is generally weak haha. Oftentimes it is a blissful state of ignorance.

 

[MACH5]

If that is true then I am in for some really early onset dementia. I heard in the rain the RMJs smell like cat piss, but I could never smell it to save my life. My nose is generally weak haha. Oftentimes it is a blissful state of ignorance.

Demented people unite!