Don't really like Japanese Black Pines

[cmeg1]

Everyone is entitled to their own preferences. But, JBP respond very well to bonsai techniques.

C’mon,Adair.......
You know you want another one,right?
You wanted a zelkova..
I ‘m all about Pines now.
Lets see whay Pinusenvy hinself can do with a 14 week old seedling with 11 leaders already.
I’m so happy.

 

[Forsoothe!]

I have never liked JBP either, but couldn't figure out why. It occurs to me now that they look like bonsai, not like landscape trees. I favor trees that might be pictured in front of a landscape where you can't see the pot and the tree looks like it is in the landscape. Maybe it's just a matter of taste and I don't got no taste.

 

[Clicio]

I have never liked JBP either, but couldn't figure out why. It occurs to me now that they look like bonsai, not like landscape trees. I favor trees that might be pictured in front of a landscape where you can't see the pot and the tree looks like it is in the landscape. Maybe it's just a matter of taste and I don't got no taste.

I've seen many jbp (kuromatsu) in several gardens and parks in Japan and they look amazing.

 

[Adair M]

I think you said something to the effect of "You really do know how to grow needles." (It was coming off a year of not being decandled too.). After my latest "project", if I can't get shorter needles, I may need to rethink whether bonsai is for me.

The epitome of bonsai for me is a Shohin Black Pine. I currently don't own any (shohin jbp), but I'm heading that direction slowly. There's a lot about JBP care that carries over to other trees, however indirectly. (The techniques are different, but the broader scope of work applies well for other species.)

Grow what interests you. There isn't a JBP fraternity of cool folks that throws awesome parties you're not going to be invited to because you don't grow them.

No, but those deciduous guys do! @MACH5 would be appalled to have me at any event he’s associated with! Lol!!!

 

[Adair M]

I have never liked JBP either, but couldn't figure out why. It occurs to me now that they look like bonsai, not like landscape trees. I favor trees that might be pictured in front of a landscape where you can't see the pot and the tree looks like it is in the landscape. Maybe it's just a matter of taste and I don't got no taste.

Does Michelangelo’s David look like a person? Or a sculpture?

 

[Adair M]

C’mon,Adair.......
You know you want another one,right?
You wanted a zelkova..
I ‘m all about Pines now.
Lets see whay Pinusenvy hinself can do with a 14 week old seedling with 11 leaders already.
I’m so happy.View attachment 334204View attachment 334205View attachment 334206

I still want a Zelkova! A really good broom. I have a couple Shohin.

We don’t see many “really good broom Zelkova” here. I guess that why I want one. I do see the heavy trunk “pine trees style (wizard hat style) tridents, and while I like them, they don’t excite me too much. Even though it was one of those that first got me interested in bonsai.

I got into JBP because what I REALLY wanted were JWP. But they were “unobtanium”! Lol!!! Both cost and climate (and ignorance) made them not suitable for me. So, I started into JBP, and I guess I found my niche, as I had better success with them than most people do. And later, after studying with Boon, I learned how to “refine” than rather than continuously “develop” them.

And now, I’ve moved to a climate that’s more hospitable for JWP, and so I’ve come back full circle. I now have some amazing JWP, that I feel lucky to be able to see and work with every day!

 

[penumbra]

Does Michelangelo’s David look like a person? Or a sculpture?

You have a valid argument, except there are those who don't want their bonsai to be a sculpture, but rather a miniature representation of nature. Many of the "sculpture" bonsai are completely and utterly amazing, that is beyond questioning.
As in all else, let each be to their own self be true.

 

[Adair M]

You have a valid argument, except there are those who don't want their bonsai to be a sculpture, but rather a miniature representation of nature. Many of the "sculpture" bonsai are completely and utterly amazing, that is beyond questioning.
As in all else, let each be to their own self be true.

That’s why it’s an “art”.

 

[MrWunderful]

I still want a Zelkova! A really good broom. I have a couple Shohin.

We don’t see many “really good broom Zelkova” here. I guess that why I want one. I do see the heavy trunk “pine trees style (wizard hat style) tridents, and while I like them, they don’t excite me too much. Even though it was one of those that first got me interested in bonsai.

I got into JBP because what I REALLY wanted were JWP. But they were “unobtanium”! Lol!!! Both cost and climate (and ignorance) made them not suitable for me. So, I started into JBP, and I guess I found my niche, as I had better success with them than most people do. And later, after studying with Boon, I learned how to “refine” than rather than continuously “develop” them.

And now, I’ve moved to a climate that’s more hospitable for JWP, and so I’ve come back full circle. I now have some amazing JWP, that I feel lucky to be able to see and work with every day!

give me 5 years and Ill have a field grown Zelkova Broom for you ready for secondary branching/refinement with proper nebari.

 

[penumbra]

That’s why it’s an “art”.

I certainly will not argue with that but the term is so subjective that it has little genuine bearing pertinent to the conversation. Where the term art begins and finishes for you is not the same as for the person who's art is miniaturizing nature in a bonsai pot. I genuinely respect your work and your views but I respect the other views as well. It is my belief that a miniature landscape can be every bit as much a work of art as the finest bonsai. This is a reason that forest plantings have such a wide appeal and why, whether you enjoy them or not, Penjing landscapes will always have a following.
By the way, the black pine you exhibited is a far better bonsai than any of my pines, even though you see multiple issues with it. No one would argue with you about developing your superlative pine bonsai. I think you know more about this than anyone else on this site and well beyond this site and I am very glad you have a strong presence here and in the world of bonsai.

 

[cmeg1]

and I am very glad you have a strong presence here and in the world of bonsai.

Exactly why I want him to develop one of my seedling cuttings........ @Brian Van Fleet too!

c’mon, a compliment is worth freindly marketing ,right?
Eventually I can go organic too

 

[penumbra]

Exactly why I want him to develop one of my seedling cuttings........ @Brian Van Fleet too!

c’mon, a compliment is worth freindly marketing ,right?
Eventually I can go organic too

I have half a dozen I bought from you almost exactly a year ago, and honestly, I have done nothing but grown them on. They are super healthy and I will study them well this winter.

 

[River's Edge]

Not knocking them or the people who like them, but they really don't do anything for me. They seem to be THEE tree to have if you are a true bonsai person. To me, the foliage always seems to look too large for the tree. I know the needles can be made smaller over time, but in the meantime, the tree looks pretty shaggy. Some of the really big, well-done specimens look "OK" but still not to my taste. Well, I guess that's why they make chocolate and vanilla.........and strawberry swirl and.....................OOOooooo.. butter pecan!

If one has only seen young or developing JBP than i can understand your comments. Refined JBP do not have foliage that seems out of proportion with the tree or design. When viewing top class JBP I am always amazed at the refined foliage. Most species do not show their best during development. Some pine species lend themselves to easier development of smaller needles, such as Shore Pine.
I can also agree that JBP is not for the average level of skill or interest to develop. Requires more patience and mastery than many other trees. At the same time with proper techniques and patience the results can be very rewarding!
I prefer to choose something that is challenging rather than something that is easy! I never buy Vanilla ice cream.
Actually it is exactly the same for top class Bonsai of any species, they require more patience and mastery of specific techniques than the average.
The key is ones level of motivation and interest.

 

[Adair M]

I certainly will not argue with that but the term is so subjective that it has little genuine bearing pertinent to the conversation. Where the term art begins and finishes for you is not the same as for the person who's art is miniaturizing nature in a bonsai pot. I genuinely respect your work and your views but I respect the other views as well. It is my belief that a miniature landscape can be every bit as much a work of art as the finest bonsai. This is a reason that forest plantings have such a wide appeal and why, whether you enjoy them or not, Penjing landscapes will always have a following.
By the way, the black pine you exhibited is a far better bonsai than any of my pines, even though you see multiple issues with it. No one would argue with you about developing your superlative pine bonsai. I think you know more about this than anyone else on this site and well beyond this site and I am very glad you have a strong presence here and in the world of bonsai.

Penjing landscapes are cool. Where did you get the idea I don’t like them? I don’t have any myself, but I’ve seen some fantastic ones!

I do the kind of bonsai I can manage. There are some great “Imperial” size bonsai, but they’re too big and heavy for me to manage, so I don’t keep them. I traded my huge olive, which I loved! for a medium sized JWP that is a size I can handle.

When I first started bonsai, I wanted “one of everything”. Every species. Every style. Alas... I found I couldn’t keep up. Too much to do, too much to know. I found that if I specialized, I could concentrate on a few species and styles, and do really well by limiting my collection.

I’m not saying that’s what YOU should do, it’s what worked for me. I do have a couple “odd ball” species, especially Shohin! You have to have a variety of trees in a good Shohin display.

 

[Adair M]

If one has only seen young or developing JBP than i can understand your comments. Refined JBP do not have foliage that seems out of proportion with the tree or design. When viewing top class JBP I am always amazed at the refined foliage. Most species do not show their best during development. Some pine species lend themselves to easier development of smaller needles, such as Shore Pine.
I can also agree that JBP is not for the average level of skill or interest to develop. Requires more patience and mastery than many other trees. At the same time with proper techniques and patience the results can be very rewarding!
I prefer to choose something that is challenging rather than something that is easy! I never buy Vanilla ice cream.
Actually it is exactly the same for top class Bonsai of any species, they require more patience and mastery of specific techniques than the average.
The key is ones level of motivation and interest.

And, highly refined trees require more work to keep them that way than does a young tree in the “grow” or “development” stage. My trees are mostly in some level of “refinement”, and therefore I don’t have a huge number. At this point in my bonsai career, I’m opting to go for quality over quantity.

 

[penumbra]

Penjing landscapes are cool. Where did you get the idea I don’t like them? I don’t have any myself, but I’ve seen some fantastic ones!

This is a reason that forest plantings have such a wide appeal and why, whether you enjoy them or not, Penjing landscapes will always have a following.

I never assumed you did not like them, and did not assume that you did. I apologize if that wasn't clear. My response was clearly a generalization. I seldom pigeon hole people and if I do, I keep it to myself.
Again, I deeply respect your work and it is rather likely I will ask you for your advice someday when I start to develop the pines I am growing on.

 

[Joe Dupre']

I've seen plenty great specimens online and quite a few in person. They still don't float my boat. I'm also getting a bit bored with the classic "cookie cutter" type of huge-trunked informal upright specimens. I know the "cookie cutter" designation might ruffle a few feathers. To that I give you an old Chinese proverb "Where everyone sees beauty, their is already ugliness."

 

[coachspinks]

While I like them I have found them intimidating. More so than deciduous trees or junipers. However, with a good bit of reading and listening to Adair and others here, I felt confident enough to buy this one from a local club member. One day when Adair is doing one of his classes at Plant City I plan on joining in.

 

[penumbra]

One day when Adair is doing one of his classes at Plant City I plan on joining in.

Great idea. Where is Plant City?

 

[coachspinks]

Great idea. Where is Plant City?

About an hour north of Atlanta in Clermont, Ga.