Don't you guys just.....

[Lynn E]

LOVE it when you're right!!!
Adair had offered me some interesting advice about slip-potting a juniper in to a larger pot, with no root work, and pumice to back fill. He said it was an awful idea. I thought this was contrary to what I've been told over the years.
So, here's what happened:
Bought an older JBP from a bonsai grower early 2015. Instructions were--no root work, slip pot in to a slightly larger nursery pot, and add pumice. Did just that. About a week ago I thought the tree didn't look quite right.
Pulled it out of the pot. There was NOT ONE root in the pumice. All of the roots were contained in the old nursery soil. Some were rotting and there was a significant gap under the base of the tree where there were no roots and no soil.
I bare-rooted half of the tree and loosened the soil and roots on the other half. And placed the tree in to an inorganic mix. We shall see.
This is one mistake I won't be making again. I lost a year but hope I haven't lost the tree.
Thanks Adair.
Lynn

 

[Adair M]

Lynn, I hope your tree recovers.

Your experience with the pumice is similiar to what others have when they slip pot into Boon Mix or similiar inorganic soil. Roots don't make the transition into the new mix because it's so different! They don't know they'll like it!

I remember back when I was a kid, I never had pizza. Never went to a pizza place, I didn't think I'd like "Italian" food. Don't they have anchovies??? Lol!!!

Once I was finally forced to go with some friends, well... All I can say is I'm glad they took me! I would never had gone in by myself.

Same with an existing root ball in typical nurseryman' mix and inorganic soil. You have to force the roots in. Once there, they love it!

 

[Adair M]

Oh,

Since you have a JBP, I recommend that you get Boon's DVD series on JBP. There's a DVD on each of the major techniques done throughout the season. One on Potting, one on decandling, and one on Fall work of needle pulling and wiring.

Go to www.bonsaiboon.com. The good news is he now offers the ability to stream the videos over the Internet, either as a permanent stream, or on a rental basis! Much less expensive!

Oh, MarkyScott has a thread on "BonsaiTonight", which is Jonas's blog. He recently put a link up to a Decandling blog, which is excellent.

 

[MichaelS]

Lynn, I hope your tree recovers.

Your experience with the pumice is similiar to what others have when they slip pot into Boon Mix or similiar inorganic soil. Roots don't make the transition into the new mix because it's so different! They don't know they'll like it!

I remember back when I was a kid, I never had pizza. Never went to a pizza place, I didn't think I'd like "Italian" food. Don't they have anchovies??? Lol!!!

Once I was finally forced to go with some friends, well... All I can say is I'm glad they took me! I would never had gone in by myself.

Same with an existing root ball in typical nurseryman' mix and inorganic soil. You have to force the roots in. Once there, they love it!

Interesting way of looking at things....
Here is what actually happens. When a particular soil/p/mix has a given air filled porosity, placing that mix in contact with another of higher AFP will disallow drainage into the new mix because the water is held more tightly in the finer mix due to a stronger surface tension. So if you water normally in with this situation (eg; to keep the pumice at a reasonable moisture level) the mix surrounding the roots will stay close to capacity. AFP is reduced (filled with water instead of air), roots begin to suffer .from lack of air and begin to die. Dead and dying roots obviously will not extend. Now, if the situation was reversed and the outer soil mix was finer than the original root ball there would be not problem whatsoever and the roots would freely continue into the new soil.
Slip potting into a larger container without root disturbance is absolutely fine provided the new mix is of the same or finer particle size. Nothing to do with organic v inorganic.
You could easily have placed that root ball on a bed composed of very fine sand and had no problem with roots.

 

[Anthony]

Big thanks Mike,
always used the - same - as you stated.
Good Day
Anthony

 

[Lynn E]

Thank you all...but now what:
Two large, older junipers-one shimp and one Itoi. Both in grow boxes surrounded by pumice. They were placed in their grow boxes late March 2016.
Lynn

 

[RickMartin]

Use more soil and use a chopstick to get it down in the roots.

Rick

 

[Adair M]

Interesting way of looking at things....
Here is what actually happens. When a particular soil/p/mix has a given air filled porosity, placing that mix in contact with another of higher AFP will disallow drainage into the new mix because the water is held more tightly in the finer mix due to a stronger surface tension. So if you water normally in with this situation (eg; to keep the pumice at a reasonable moisture level) the mix surrounding the roots will stay close to capacity. AFP is reduced (filled with water instead of air), roots begin to suffer .from lack of air and begin to die. Dead and dying roots obviously will not extend. Now, if the situation was reversed and the outer soil mix was finer than the original root ball there would be not problem whatsoever and the roots would freely continue into the new soil.
Slip potting into a larger container without root disturbance is absolutely fine provided the new mix is of the same or finer particle size. Nothing to do with organic v inorganic.
You could easily have placed that root ball on a bed composed of very fine sand and had no problem with roots.

What you're saying is true. I had posted the same info about the difference in air and water of the two soils in the earlier post some time ago. And how to properly transition trees from old soil to "new" inorganic soil.

I had explained all the "science" before. I thought I was kind of funny relating it to my personal distrust of pizza as a youth.

 

[Lynn E]

My apologies for creating a pine/ juniper/ re-potting/ soil thread.
For the junipers in post#6. Will it be beneficial to gently pull the pumice away from the root balls creating a kind of moat. Tease out some roots on the sides of the root balls and fill the" moat" with a fine mix of acadama, lava, and..? or...?
Thanks for all your help. Lynn

 

[Adair M]

My apologies for creating a pine/ juniper/ re-potting/ soil thread.
For the junipers in post#6. Will it be beneficial to gently pull the pumice away from the root balls creating a kind of moat. Tease out some roots on the sides of the root balls and fill the" moat" with a fine mix of acadama, lava, and..? or...?
Thanks for all your help. Lynn

Lynn, no problem with me for creating a potting thread! Potting is actually the most important skill to learn to be successful at bonsai. Strong roots make for a strong tree. A strong tree can tolerate a lot styling. And will recover and thrive much better and faster than a tree with weak roots.

Here's what I would do:

Grow boxes are great. But to get the roots to grow out into whatever new medium you are using, the need to be teased out from the old rootball 1/2 to 3/4 inch. The bottom of the rootball should be kept flat and smooth with no roots sticking out. We actually don't want roots growing down from the rootball, only radial roots going out. So, the rootball should be fuzzy with roots around the edges, smooth underneath.

When you backfill with new soil, lightly chopstick around the edge of the rootball. The idea is to make sure the 1/2 to 3/4 inch of teased out roots are surrounded with new soil. Don't chopstick too much, you'll damage the fine roots. Don't chopstick the old solid rootball. Don't chopstick places in the pot where there's new soil, but no fine roots.

When you've got it backfilled and chopsticked in, do lightly tap the out side of the pot or grow box with the meat part of your fist. On all four sides. This will help settle the soil. You may need to add a bit more soil.

Water from the top until the water runs clean from the bottom. Put the trees back out in full sun.

 

[ConorDash]

Good info here, I've not heard of "slip potting" till recently, or its purpose.

I kind of have to say. If advice is given, and followed to the letter, but fails. I dont think its polite to accuse the source. You are a person yourself, with your own knowledge. You may take knowledge or advice from many sources, but it is ultimately up to you to govern your decision and actions. I think its unfair to blame that on someone else. Maybe I've misunderstood but thats my 2 cents.

 

[Adair M]

Conor,

There are lots of people giving absolutely awful bonsai advice. How is a newbie to know when they are given bad advice? It's difficult!

Lynn, to her credit has recognized that she got bad advice from someone, and has come here to acknowledge it. Hopefully others won't fall into the same trap she did.

Slip potting:

I would never do it. Unless the new pot has virtually the same dimensions as the old pot.

 

[ConorDash]

Conor,

There are lots of people giving absolutely awful bonsai advice. How is a newbie to know when they are given bad advice? It's difficult!

Lynn, to her credit has recognized that she got bad advice from someone, and has come here to acknowledge it. Hopefully others won't fall into the same trap she did.

Slip potting:

I would never do it. Unless the new pot has virtually the same dimensions as the old pot.

Of course, I understand. I just didn't really like the way that the advice was not appreciated and as if the blame was wholly placed on the person given the advice. Thats all.

 

[Adair M]

Of course, I understand. I just didn't really like the way that the advice was not appreciated and as if the blame was wholly placed on the person given the advice. Thats all.

Sorry, I still don't get what you're saying? She's supposed to be appreciative of bad advice?

 

[ConorDash]

Sorry, I still don't get what you're saying? She's supposed to be appreciative of bad advice?

No, appreciative of advice. Whether it is bad or good, clearly someone thought it was good at a time to give it and it worked for them. Just because it didn't work for one person one occasion, I don't think it means it should be thrown away.

I will say, I reread the original message and saw the bit saying "Adair thought it was an awful idea". I missed that bit to begin with, I thought the entire lost was sarcastically saying thanks to you, as in you gave the advice! Lol. So that changed it, but still, the advice must have worked at some point to be given no? Just because it didn't work one time, doesn't mean it's to be forsaken. But as we have gone in to more detail with what MichaelS has said, the situation has been enlightened more. This was probably not known to begin with.

 

[Adair M]

Conor,

Doing a slip pot the way Lynn was told to do it is, has been, and always will be poor practice. I told her so at the time.

The whole point of this thread is, "Adair was right all along".

Especially when it involves potting, how to use modern inorganic soils, there are more people who DON'T know what they're doing than those who do.

I try to correct these misunderstandings as best I can. Many of these old practices are well entrenched, however. Many times when I've taught a new technique I've heard the objection, "But that's not the way _________ (fill in the blank with your favorite bonsai master from the '70s) taught me!" Or, "That's not in Naka's books", or something similiar.

Exactly.

I'm teaching the newer, better techniques. Back in the day, many of the articles that were originally published in Japanese were translated to Spanish. And the from Spanish to English. Who knows how many mistranslations occurred? Many.

So, much of what was taught back then was erroneous. But because it's published in a book, it lives on. And new generations of bonsai enthusiasts continue to struggle.

If I may recite a personsal example: about 5 or 6 years ago, I was looking at the JBP at my local bonsai shop. And several of them were all messed up. They had long needles, and no buds, and really looked terrible. So I asked what happened. "Oh, we decandled those last week." This was in December! I was incredulous! "Last week?", I asked. "Why then? It should have been done last summer!" "Oh, no", I was told, "Warren Hill told us to decandle them!" I told them they must have been mistaken, Warren must have meant them to be done in the summer.

A year went by. Warren came to town in November to teach a JBP class, and teach wiring.

So, I signed up. So I could hear directly from him how he said to decandle. And wouldn't you know it, he did indeed tell everyone to decandle their JBP right in the middle of November! I refused to do it. Everyone else did. I didn't argue with him, just didn't comply. That was the morning session.

In the afternoon, he was going to teach Wiring. First thing he says, "The best bonsai aren't wired at all". Huh? I'm sure my jaw hit the floor! He went on,"only wire if you absolutely have to. And then try this method: I call it the 'Hill Prop'". He then came over to my work station, cut off a 6 inch piece of my 10 gauge copper wire (I was the only one with copper), then cut sharp point in both ends by cutting at a sharp angle. He then goes over to someone's tree, and says, "To bend a branch down, don't wire it, just grab it, bend it down, jab one end of the sharpened wire into the top of the limb, and put the other end up against the trunk, when you release the pressure, the sharp point will sink in, and hold the branch down!"

I was agast!

This man was the former curator of the National Bonsai Collection in Washington, DC! And that was how he was teaching wiring? I literally could not believe what I was seeing and hearing!

There were a dozen of us in the workshop. I was the only one who recognized that what he was "teaching" was utter rubbish.

That was probably the last workshops he gave. Soon afterwards, Warren suffered a major stroke, and he is now confined to a wheelchair. I saw him at the NC Expo last October, when he was able to get out to see the show. I have spoken with a couple of his old friends, and they told me that they suspect that he had probably suffered some mini-strokes prior to the big one. And those probably messed up his memory. And caused him to get mixed up.

So... It's entirely possible for well meaning people to teach poor technique and/or give poor advice.

Still, it's very hard for a novice to be able to differentiate between what's good and not good.

 

[Vance Wood]

Sad story.

 

[ConorDash]

Conor,

Doing a slip pot the way Lynn was told to do it is, has been, and always will be poor practice. I told her so at the time.

The whole point of this thread is, "Adair was right all along".

Especially when it involves potting, how to use modern inorganic soils, there are more people who DON'T know what they're doing than those who do.

I try to correct these misunderstandings as best I can. Many of these old practices are well entrenched, however. Many times when I've taught a new technique I've heard the objection, "But that's not the way _________ (fill in the blank with your favorite bonsai master from the '70s) taught me!" Or, "That's not in Naka's books", or something similiar.

Exactly.

I'm teaching the newer, better techniques. Back in the day, many of the articles that were originally published in Japanese were translated to Spanish. And the from Spanish to English. Who knows how many mistranslations occurred? Many.

So, much of what was taught back then was erroneous. But because it's published in a book, it lives on. And new generations of bonsai enthusiasts continue to struggle.

If I may recite a personsal example: about 5 or 6 years ago, I was looking at the JBP at my local bonsai shop. And several of them were all messed up. They had long needles, and no buds, and really looked terrible. So I asked what happened. "Oh, we decandled those last week." This was in December! I was incredulous! "Last week?", I asked. "Why then? It should have been done last summer!" "Oh, no", I was told, "Warren Hill told us to decandle them!" I told them they must have been mistaken, Warren must have meant them to be done in the summer.

A year went by. Warren came to town in November to teach a JBP class, and teach wiring.

So, I signed up. So I could hear directly from him how he said to decandle. And wouldn't you know it, he did indeed tell everyone to decandle their JBP right in the middle of November! I refused to do it. Everyone else did. I didn't argue with him, just didn't comply. That was the morning session.

In the afternoon, he was going to teach Wiring. First thing he says, "The best bonsai aren't wired at all". Huh? I'm sure my jaw hit the floor! He went on,"only wire if you absolutely have to. And then try this method: I call it the 'Hill Prop'". He then came over to my work station, cut off a 6 inch piece of my 10 gauge copper wire (I was the only one with copper), then cut sharp point in both ends by cutting at a sharp angle. He then goes over to someone's tree, and says, "To bend a branch down, don't wire it, just grab it, bend it down, jab one end of the sharpened wire into the top of the limb, and put the other end up against the trunk, when you release the pressure, the sharp point will sink in, and hold the branch down!"

I was agast!

This man was the former curator of the National Bonsai Collection in Washington, DC! And that was how he was teaching wiring? I literally could not believe what I was seeing and hearing!

There were a dozen of us in the workshop. I was the only one who recognized that what he was "teaching" was utter rubbish.

That was probably the last workshops he gave. Soon afterwards, Warren suffered a major stroke, and he is now confined to a wheelchair. I saw him at the NC Expo last October, when he was able to get out to see the show. I have spoken with a couple of his old friends, and they told me that they suspect that he had probably suffered some mini-strokes prior to the big one. And those probably messed up his memory. And caused him to get mixed up.

So... It's entirely possible for well meaning people to teach poor technique and/or give poor advice.

Still, it's very hard for a novice to be able to differentiate between what's good and not good.

Wow that's a hell of a story.
My comment had nothing to do with your correction of the advice, consider it simply a mistaken understanding, on my part.

Besides, if ever comes the day when I question something YOU have advised on, then I will well and truly be too big for my shoes and would deserve the large correction that you and many others would give me.

 

[Adair M]

Lol!!!

Conor, I've been doing bonsai a long time. Over that time, I've taken workshops with a lot of people, seen a lot of demonstrations. While I do not profess to "know it all", I do have enough experience to recognize good new technique and bad new technique.

I'm just trying to pass along the good, and help people reject the bad!

Unfortunately, some people don't want to let go of some old ways and embrace the new.

 

[ConorDash]

Lol!!!

Conor, I've been doing bonsai a long time. Over that time, I've taken workshops with a lot of people, seen a lot of demonstrations. While I do not profess to "know it all", I do have enough experience to recognize good new technique and bad new technique.

I'm just trying to pass along the good, and help people reject the bad!

Unfortunately, some people don't want to let go of some old ways and embrace the new.

I understand . To be honest, this is the first time I've heard of there being old ways and new. Of course with anything that has gone on long enough there will be older techniques and new.
However with something like bonsai, if asking an inexperienced person whether they think old ways or new are better, I would bet they would say old...
I can't properly explain why, it just seems to me that this art, born many many years ago, it seems like the old, ancient, original techniques of the "masters" would be best.
But I guess some can be and others, not so much.
So it's something new I've learnt today, some new techniques, are good.

You are the last person I want to have a misunderstanding with Adair. I respect your knowledge of the art too much.