Double budding? JBP

ValorG

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This is new to me, looks like the fresh new candles on my jbp are sprouting new candles already and those are extending again. Is this normal?




IMG_20170610_182040.jpg
 

namnhi

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This is new to me, looks like the fresh new candles on my jbp are sprouting new candles already and those are extending again. Is this normal?




View attachment 148910
Yes it is normal if your tree is vigorous and you have early Spring. I have quite a few doing this.
 

sorce

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What happened to the needles on the earlier part?

Sorce
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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I believe @ValorG is referring to the left candle, looks to me the left candle was broken or damaged at the growing tip, and quickly sprouted 2 secondary candles. This is perfectly normal. This is what will happen when you break candles early in growing season, instead of de-candling somewhat later in the growing season. Perfectly normal. With JBP de-candling is the preferred method, where with JWP, judicious use of candle breaking is one of several techniques used. JWP the de-candling technique can lead to very poor results, possibly death if done too many years in a row.

I would keep an eye on the spotting on your needles. Looks a bit like spider mite, or possibly needle cast infection. Treat if this appears in more than one or two spots.
 

Leo in N E Illinois

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@ValorG the comment by Bonsai Nut is referring to normal autumn or late winter work on JBP is to reduce the number of terminal buds on each branch tip to just two. Or, some will for various reasons reduce to 3. But this is a refinement technique that you should begin practicing in the future as you begin to design and refine your tree.
 

Brian Van Fleet

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All normal, healthy candles terminate in a bud for next year. That's what you're seeing.
Like Leo said, if you pinched the developing candle in April or so, the buds will appear at the break.
In very strong pines, or under duress, some may grow in the current season.
 

ValorG

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Thank you everybody for the information. I never noticed but yeah the leaves do look weird. It does kinda look like spider mites. Thanks for the heads up!
 

Wilson

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What happened to the needles on the earlier part?

Sorce
Are you asking about the lower part of the candle? Looks just like a vigorous candle extension. Controlling that "gap" is part of growing pines.
 

sorce

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Looks just like a vigorous candle extension.

Without needles?

What's that F word.... facsimile?
Fasciclerulrt?

That spot the needle comes from....

It got them.

Sorce
 

Brian Van Fleet

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Without needles?

What's that F word.... facsimile?
Fasciclerulrt?

That spot the needle comes from....

It got them.

Sorce
WTF? As in fascicle?
Do you even own a JBP?
 

my nellie

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... ...Looks just like a vigorous candle extension. Controlling that "gap" is part of growing pines.
Interesting indeed!
This is the first time I see something like this... and the first time I read about this either.
I do not have any Pine of any species (I have killed 2 or 3) but I do research to get any info I can in order to prepare better for my next Pine to come...
So, how is that "gap" controlled, may I ask?
If removing the upper part of the vigorous candle (which grows needles) would there be any effect on the lower part to grow needles?
 

BeebsBonsai

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Interesting indeed!
This is the first time I see something like this... and the first time I read about this either.
I do not have any Pine of any species (I have killed 2 or 3) but I do research to get any info I can in order to prepare better for my next Pine to come...
So, how is that "gap" controlled, may I ask?
If removing the upper part of the vigorous candle (which grows needles) would there be any effect on the lower part to grow needles?

Typically you control the gap by candle pruning once the new candles have hardened off. At this point the tree, if cared for an fertilized well, will produce a second flush of growth from the point at which you cut the candles. Wjen cuttig candles always leave a bot of green at the cut site. Its from that area that new buds will break and form candles
 

my nellie

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Pruning candles... We refer to JBP which has double flush of growth. Correct?

Does this phenomenon of vigorously growing candles which have needles only on their upper half but not on their lower half, also occurs on Pinus sylvestris?
 

BeebsBonsai

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Pruning candles... We refer to JBP which has double flush of growth. Correct?

Does this phenomenon of vigorously growing candles which have needles only on their upper half but not on their lower half, also occurs on Pinus sylvestris?

That phenomenon will occur in almost any pine. Pines are apically dominant trees. Most trees are, in fact, with a few exceptions in the juniper family. There are hormones at work in trees. One hormone, in particular, Auxin, is what causes this strength differential. Essentially, Auxin is a hormone that is present at the tips of branches, and in higher concentration at the top of a tree. Auxin, in high concentrations at the tips of the branches, will suppress all growth below the tips. This is what allows trees to grow tall and stay in full sunlight. Naturally, then, a tree will give its resources to its highest points, hoping that those points will out-compete other trees and grow tall enough that they are never shaded out by others.

So, as a tree grows, its top gets stronger, as it receives full sun, and the lower branches get weaker as they are shaded out by taller ones above them. Combine that with the naturally occurinng Auxin, and you have the recipe for this "phenomenon."

How do we fix this problem? In jbp, we can candle prune when the needles harden off and get a second mature flush in the same year. Hence, the two flush pine designation. In pinus sylvestris "scots pine," you candle pinch before hardening off to remove that auxinal suppression and even candle length across the tree. Dont candle prune a single-flush pine because you will possibly kill the tree.
 

my nellie

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Thank you for replying @BeebsBonsai !
Whereas the subject of hormones and monopodial growth form are known to me, I didn't make the correlation to this "phenomenon" :)
So, the reasoning is the apical dominance.
 

BeebsBonsai

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Thank you for replying @BeebsBonsai !
Whereas the subject of hormones and monopodial growth form are known to me, I didn't make the correlation to this "phenomenon" :)
So, the reasoning is the apical dominance.

Theres also the natural shading of smaller interior buds and branches below the top of the tree, which brings less resources to bottom branches. I have a limber ive let the candles go on to gain strength and eventually promote back budding and the apical candles are no joke 6-7 inches long. With 3-4 inch needles. Unsightly for now but impressive nonetheless
 
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