Doubts about indoor lighting

[eduardocruz]

Hello, greetings from Brazil
I'm setting up an indoor lighting system to improve my bonsai growth.
I have 8 bonsai here in my apartment, including several ones that I shouldn't have like a Trident Maple. Well, I keep the window open so they can experience outside weather conditions, at least a bit.
I live in the south and it is pretty cold in the winter.

The area the bonsai occupy is about 2'x6' wide.
I checked google and saw that bonsai require at least 40w per square feet.

So I intend to buy 2 reflectors, each one 2'x2.5'.
For each reflector, I still don't know if I buy a 250w or 400w MH light.
I'm concerned because the electric bill here is expected to increase by 30% to the lack of rain.
But, tree's healthy comes first.

Another problem is that most lights I find are only 4500k, from Philips.
I also found in a store here a light described as Super MH Agro, which has 6500k. However, I couldn't find any information about this lamp.

I intend to install a low speed fan on the table to keep the heat air away from my trees.

Questions:

Should I get 250w or 400w lights?

Should I get the 4500k from Philips or the 6500k from Agro?

I appreciate your help.

 

[Stiple]

The different color temperatures of the lights provide different strengths of different areas of the color spectrum. Higher is bluer, lower is more orange/yellow. If you search online you'll find mentions of these two being better for normal growth and flowering. Either should be fine, but I didn't see any mention of the lumen output in your post. How bright are they, and how close would you have your trees to the light bulb?

Growing bonsai inside can be done, just under the right conditions.

Also, if your worried about electricity costs, CFLs are great and can be left closer to the foliage without burning it than MH lights could.

 

[quietobserver]

"I live in the south and it is pretty cold in the winter"

But you live in Brazil and its springtime. You shouldn't be 'setting up to improve growth' until next fall, in Brazil. Best of luck though.

 

[eduardocruz]

The different color temperatures of the lights provide different strengths of different areas of the color spectrum. Higher is bluer, lower is more orange/yellow. If you search online you'll find mentions of these two being better for normal growth and flowering. Either should be fine, but I didn't see any mention of the lumen output in your post. How bright are they, and how close would you have your trees to the light bulb?

Growing bonsai inside can be done, just under the right conditions.

Also, if your worried about electricity costs, CFLs are great and can be left closer to the foliage without burning it than MH lights could.

The lumen outputs are:

Philips 250w: 20500
Philips 400w: 35000

Agro 250w: 18000
Agro 400w: 32000

So the Philips provides more lumens.
However, remember that color of the Philips is 4500k, while the Agro is 6500k.

I intend to keep the lights as close as possible, putting the fan to avoid burning the leaves.
It is important to mention that the plants receive direct morning sunlight, specially during summer, since the window is east oriented.
So i will keep the reflectors/bulb in a distance that will note cause any shadows during morning.
So, the distance between the top of the plants will be between 1' and 1.5'.

I see that people usually get better results with MH than CFLs.
Although saving money is good, I can afford the extra cost if the results are worth it.

Ah! It i important to mention that it is really hot during summer.
Temperature reaches 95F, or even 105F in the hottest days.

So, which light do you suggest?
Philips or Agro?
250w or 400w?

 

[eduardocruz]

"I live in the south and it is pretty cold in the winter"

But you live in Brazil and its springtime. You shouldn't be 'setting up to improve growth' until next fall, in Brazil. Best of luck though.

I disagree.
The trees are waking up now and will need light to grow.
My chinese elm lost all leaves in the winter.
Its leaves are starting to appear now.
So I believe now is the best tim to setup the lighting, to try to keep inter node and leaves sizes small.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

I disagree.
The trees are waking up now and will need light to grow.
My chinese elm lost all leaves in the winter.
Its leaves are starting to appear now.
So I believe now is the best tim to setup the lighting, to try to keep inter node and leaves sizes small.

I disagree with this. If you want to keep the leaves small then your best bet would be to keep the trees outdoors. The power of the sun is much stronger than artificial lighting.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I think he means that you should put them outside soon when it starts to warm up and get some real sunlight. I enjoy being able to tinker with the plants through the winter with my indoor setup, but as soon as it gets warm enough I put them outside in a sunny spot. It is not necessary(for some species), but even the ones that don't need real sunlight enjoy it.

get some led chips and cpu coolers if you want the most bang for your buck, My plants do pretty well what I am estimating 25w/ft^2. That is 150 watts total between the tank and non-tank:
100-watt-LED-year-two

 

[edprocoat]

I disagree.
The trees are waking up now and will need light to grow.
My chinese elm lost all leaves in the winter.
Its leaves are starting to appear now.
So I believe now is the best tim to setup the lighting, to try to keep inter node and leaves sizes small.

Eduardo, Chinese Elms can be deciduous or can keep their leaves year around growing like a true tropical. Your plan is good to get light on them now that they are ready to leaf out but in reality you really should have this light setup going constantly to keep it strong. Light through your glass window is filtered as it is and morning light may keep it alive but it would thrive with 10 hours of light a day. You may not want that much light on the Trident though.

ed

 

[edprocoat]

I disagree with this. If you want to keep the leaves small then your best bet would be to keep the trees outdoors. The power of the sun is much stronger than artificial lighting.

Ryan, I think he may not be able to keep them outdoors as he lives in an apartment .

ed

 

[Redwood Ryan]

Ryan, I think he may not be able to keep them outdoors as he lives in an apartment .

ed

Good point, missed this.

 

[eduardocruz]

Ryan, I think he may not be able to keep them outdoors as he lives in an apartment .

ed

Correct.
I still need to live in my apartment for a couple of years, so I depend on artificial lights.
Afterwards, I intend to move to a house and leave the trees outdoors 24/7.

 

[eduardocruz]

Eduardo, Chinese Elms can be deciduous or can keep their leaves year around growing like a true tropical. Your plan is good to get light on them now that they are ready to leaf out but in reality you really should have this light setup going constantly to keep it strong. Light through your glass window is filtered as it is and morning light may keep it alive but it would thrive with 10 hours of light a day. You may not want that much light on the Trident though.

ed

Yeah.
As soon as I buy the lights I will do like this: normal sunlight during the morning, combined with artificial lights until 7 or 8pm.
By the way, I keep the windows opened whenever is possible, so the sunlight doesnt get filtered.

 

[eduardocruz]

Guys, please, help me.
Which of that lights do you think I should buy?

 

[MrFancyPlants]

I would recommend a t5 ho light because they are cheap and easy. And later, if you want to upgrade skip the MH and go for an LED setup because you can get better output at greater efficiency.

You can find them cheaper and/or bigger than this, but this, but this is a good standard to measure against:

http://www.amazon.com/Hydrofarm-FLT24-4-Tube-Commercial-System/dp/B002JQBQZQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1411571269&sr=8-1&keywords=t5+ho

 

[quietobserver]

I disagree.
The trees are waking up now and will need light to grow.
My chinese elm lost all leaves in the winter.
Its leaves are starting to appear now.
So I believe now is the best tim to setup the lighting, to try to keep inter node and leaves sizes small.

My apologies, I misread that you don't have outdoor space. The T5 rig mrfancyplants has posted would get my vote.

 

[eduardocruz]

Ok.
For the T5, if I put several tubes inside a reflector, can I keep the lights 1' away from the top of the trees?
Because, like I said, i don't want to cause any shadows and lose the morning sunlight.

 

[eduardocruz]

Also, the T5s 6500k that I am finding in the stores here produce about 86 lumens per wat.
And I would need 4 50w T5s to get the same lumen output as a single 250w MH.
Too much trouble to save 50w.

 

[MrFancyPlants]

what about this one? There are tons of options out there with even more bulbs and slimmer reflectors.

http://www.amazon.com/EnviroGro-4Ft-Tube-Fixture-Bulbs-FLT46/dp/B005H1C74O/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1411577596&sr=8-2&keywords=t5+ho+6

The four foot bulbs would fit better and are more efficient. T5 HO is by far the easiest way to go.. and they stay cool enough that you can practically put them on your plants without having to worry about scorching.

 

[Redwood Ryan]

what about this one? There are tons of options out there with even more bulbs and slimmer reflectors.

http://www.amazon.com/EnviroGro-4Ft-Tube-Fixture-Bulbs-FLT46/dp/B005H1C74O/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1411577596&sr=8-2&keywords=t5+ho+6

The four foot bulbs would fit better and are more efficient. T5 HO is by far the easiest way to go.. and they stay cool enough that you can practically put them on your plants without having to worry about scorching.

This is a great light. Ballast just went out on mine so I'm going to have to replace it, though.

 

[eduardocruz]

But I live in Brazil and don't have the luxury of buying in Amazon.
Third world standands...