Dr. Shigo and tree pruning

[Attila Soos]

I think Dr. Shigo most likely mowed his grass and pulled weeds. Why is that ok.. Why can I freely disrespect grass and weeds?

We can dispute some of his conclusions, but there is no need to trivialize his findings. I don't necessariy agree with eveything he says, but I respect his work. Shigo clearly says that there is no problem with pruning a tree, or even removing large branches, since the tree is well equipped to handle that. As long as we do it the correct way, in order to take advantage of the tree's defense mechanism. This is what he is trying to teach in his book. He is all for pruning trees, by knowledgeable people.

 

[rockm]

"Joking aside, Dr. Shigo, as I understand, would perceive in a negative light an action that permanently harms a tree. Mowing grass, or pruning a hedge does not permanently harm them, it rejuvenates them. They recover 100%. On the other hand, when the trunk of of a tree is partially killed, that will be perceived by some (not necessarily the bonsaist), as harming the tree. That's because the dead part will never heal. It will just be sealed off from the live portion. As long as this happens over a relatively small area, the tree is not in danger. As the are increases, the defense system may be pushed to the limit."

This is what gets to me with this Shigo stuff. Where's the line between acceptable and unnacceptable? Pruning a hedge can indeed kill it if done improperly. Same with mowing grass--ever set the blades too low or mow when it's really dry?

There are no guarantees with any procedure...

Hard pruning a tree mostly INDUCES MORE GROWTH--especially with deciduous trees--even if a substantial portion of the pruned portion dies back. Trees are hardwired to do that. It's how they grow. We're merely taking advantage of a natural capability.

 

[Anonymous User]

As for Shigo, who really gives a damn. I get rather tired of him and his acolytes...He's not doing bonsai, and it appears that he doesn't approve anyway.

Ah, he's not really doing anything since he passed.....




The bottom line is that Dr. Shigo changed the thoughts and practices of arborists all over the world, he literally dissected thousands of trees in his lifetime and added volumes to the knowledge base. Since he was not a bonsaist, naturally all his findings and studies do not apply to bonsai or the best way to cultivate such. However, one can benefit greatly by learning more about trees the way they grow, and from those people who have studied more trees than most of us will ever touch.

The biggest mistake people make is assuming that somehow bonsai grow differently than trees in nature, they do not. Sure, we restrict root growth, prune, trim, and such, but the inherent growth principles of a tree never changes, they respond to damage and conditions the same way, they respond to techniques the same way, just slower.

At a recent show I asked a couple newcomers some simple questions about trees, such as why do leaves change color in the fall, why do they drop off, what causes the leaves to drop? How do buds form on old wood, how do branches bend naturally and what happens to the wood when a heavy snow load is present? Amazingly neither they or a couple advanced people could provide an answer.

Maybe knowing about trees is not important in bonsai to some people? But I like to know so I read Dr. Shigo's books as well as many others including 'The Growing Tree' by Brayton F. Wilson which is excellent.

Agree with them or not, there is no doubt that they are far more knowledgeable than most of us when it comes to trees and how they grow. Are any of us so good that we can not learn anything new?




Will

 

[rockm]

"The biggest mistake people make is assuming that somehow bonsai grow differently than trees in nature, they do not. Sure, we restrict root growth, prune, trim, and such, but the inherent growth principles of a tree never changes, they respond to damage and conditions the same way, they respond to techniques the same way, just slower."

This is the kind of high handed crap that Shigo Shinola sometimes fosters in people. I make no "mistake" assuming bonsai grow differently. I count on them growing EXACTLY the same as those in the wild. Their reactions in containers are no different from their wild counterparts. I understand that and have learned how to use it to MY advantage in growing bonsai. Again, consult nature on wounds and pruning. Trees in nature are rarely delicately pruned to limb collars. They are smashed, broken, snapped, gored, bored and ripped with no thought at all. They get past it. The seminal point most people miss with Shigo and bonsai is that Shigo WASN'T TALKING ABOUT BONSAI...

"At a recent show I asked a couple newcomers some simple questions about trees, such as why do leaves change color in the fall, why do they drop off, what causes the leaves to drop? How do buds form on old wood, how do branches bend naturally and what happens to the wood when a heavy snow load is present? Amazingly neither they or a couple advanced people could provide an answer."

Well, I could ask you how a buzzard can eat rotten meat and not die from salmonella. You may or may not be able to answer as that's pretty much trivial info to your everyday life. Just because people don't know the "simple" answers doesn't mean they're stupid or even uninformed. Did you know anything about Indolebutyric acid before you did bonsai. Did you care? What that inability to answer actually means they really haven't given it much thought. It's not "amazing" they couldn't answer. It's understandable.

"Maybe knowing about trees is not important in bonsai to some people? But I like to know so I read Dr. Shigo's books as well as many others including 'The Growing Tree' by Brayton F. Wilson which is excellent."

Uh, yeah...I prefer blind ignorance .

I've read Shigo and many other books. I have well over 200 bonsai books alone and another hundred general arborist titles. I'm not really uninterested...I have observed, however, that Shigo sometimes fosters a kind of cult following...who can get rather huffy when his theories aren't sucked up like champagne...yeah, his observations are wonderful. I don't think they're all gospel or somehow magical. Not knowing them hardly makes anyone inferior.

"Agree with them or not, there is no doubt that they are far more knowledgeable than most of us when it comes to trees and how they grow. Are any of us so good that we can not learn anything new?"

Are any of us so good we can't rationally evaluate what they're saying and not have to take everything they say as gospel?

 

[rockm]

As for Shigo, who really gives a damn. I get rather tired of him and his acolytes...He's not doing bonsai, and it appears that he doesn't approve anyway.

"Ah, he's not really doing anything since he passed....."

Ah, I was speaking of his past work. One doesn't have to be alive to have acolytes...

 

[Juniperus Californica]

Hey Attila,

Before you get too wrapped around the axel about cutting trees, ask to take a look at Dr. Shigo's bonsai collection. If he ain't got one, maybe you should spend your time studying those who do have one! I have a hard time listening to someone who can't show me outstanding bonsai - tree trimming is one thing, growing bonsai is completely different!

 

[Attila Soos]

Hey, it's always great to learn something from these books. But when we encounter a so-called taboo (don't do this or that), and this taboo is in a direct conflict with an accepted bonsai practic, then it is time to prove them wrong. Doing that is actually fun and educational. It can tell to the world that bonsai is not just abot aesthetic pleasure, but also can teach people about the lives of trees.

 

[Attila Soos]

... maybe you should spend your time studying those who do have one! I have a hard time listening to someone who can't show me outstanding bonsai - tree trimming is one thing, growing bonsai is completely different!

Believe me, I do. My bonsai library (over 100 bonsai books) is much larger than my "arborist library" (5 books).

 

[greerhw]

I've read Shigo and many other books. I have well over 200 bonsai books alone and another hundred general arborist titles.

Other than the pretty pictures, you could have spent what you did on the books with Marco for a week and learned more than you have from all those books and they wouldn't be collecting dust. Bonsai techniques have changed since some of those books were printed.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Juniperus Californica]

So Attila,

If you have a 20:1 ratio of bonsai to arborist books, the aborists have no bonsai to speak of, and the bonsai masters (who by the way have some of the most beautiful bonsai in the world) are all telling you one thing, why would you worry about what the arborist is telling you? Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not getting this thread.

JC

 

[Attila Soos]

So Attila,

If you have a 20:1 ratio of bonsai to arborist books, the aborists have no bonsai to speak of, and the bonsai masters (who by the way have some of the most beautiful bonsai in the world) are all telling you one thing, why would you worry about what the arborist is telling you? Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not getting this thread.

JC

The number of books is irrelevant.
I am not worried about what the arborists are telling.

What I am interested, is to have the healthiest trees possible.

Dr. Shigo claims to be a scientist (actually he IS a scientist), who studied trees for a few decades. I have a few of his other books, he has an impressive knowledge on trees, and all this knowledge is from his practical experience. So his opinions should not be taken ligthly, or simply discarded based on convenience.

Some of the conclusions that he has drawn from these studies seem to contradict bonsai practices. It may not actually be a contradiction, if the information he provided is used in the right context. It may only APPEAR to be a contradiction. I simply wanted to reconcile the differences. It is my curiosity to do so.

This thread provided some answers in this regard, so my curiosity was satisfied.

 

[Rick Moquin]

So Attila,

If you have a 20:1 ratio of bonsai to arborist books, the aborists have no bonsai to speak of, and the bonsai masters (who by the way have some of the most beautiful bonsai in the world) are all telling you one thing, why would you worry about what the arborist is telling you? Maybe I'm missing something but I'm not getting this thread.

JC

Did you start at the beginning? and do you know who Shigo is? if not, go back to sleep.

 

[Anonymous User]

Well, I could ask you how a buzzard can eat rotten meat and not die from salmonella. You may or may not be able to answer as that's pretty much trivial info to your everyday life. Just because people don't know the "simple" answers doesn't mean they're stupid or even uninformed. Did you know anything about Indolebutyric acid before you did bonsai. Did you care? What that inability to answer actually means they really haven't given it much thought. It's not "amazing" they couldn't answer. It's understandable.

Sorry, I disagree, if I was keeping, caring for, or raising buzzards, I damn sure would know the answer. The same could be said for someone who is keeping, raising, or caring for trees, there is no excuse for not knowing how and why a tree grows.


Will

 

[Klytus]

Did he select his diseased trees to suit his theorems?

That's the first question i would ask.

Of course his being late and all means the question will go unanswered.

 

[rockm]

"Other than the pretty pictures, you could have spent what you did on the books with Marco for a week and learned more than you have from all those books and they wouldn't be collecting dust. Bonsai techniques have changed since some of those books were printed."

Not really. I amassed the collection over the last 15 years or so. Some are old, some are new. Good bonsai never changes.

And spending money on an instructor is a personal thing. I've done so. Learned alot, but realize no on is the sole fountainhead of knowledge. Casting a wider net catches more fish.

"Sorry, I disagree, if I was keeping, caring for, or raising buzzards, I damn sure would know the answer. The same could be said for someone who is keeping, raising, or caring for trees, there is no excuse for not knowing how and why a tree grows."

I misunderstood your post. You said "people." You didn't say what people. I assumed you meant generally.

 

[greerhw]

And spending money on an instructor is a personal thing. I've done so. Learned alot, but realize no on is the sole fountainhead of knowledge. Casting a wider net catches more fish.



Masters are expensive, so it depends what species trees you have in your collection, mine are all confiers styled in the traditional Japanese styles, so it makes sense to me to spend my money on one trained in Japan.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[rockm]

"Masters are expensive, so it depends what species trees you have in your collection, mine are all confiers styled in the traditional Japanese styles, so it makes sense to me to spend my money on one trained in Japan."

This is interesting. I have mostly collected Southeastern U.S. trees. Primarily deciduous. A few of them aren't common as bonsai--black cherry, live oak and a few others. I also have some more traditional Asian species. Their design is far from "Japanese Traditional."

For my most valuable trees, which are collected Cedar elm and live oak, there isn't really all that much relative experience. What works for a black pine or trident (including design) won't work for an old Texas live oak. Some of us out here are flying by the seats of our pants as to what works with "new" species.

 

[greerhw]

"Masters are expensive, so it depends what species trees you have in your collection, mine are all confiers styled in the traditional Japanese styles, so it makes sense to me to spend my money on one trained in Japan."

This is interesting. I have mostly collected Southeastern U.S. trees. Primarily deciduous. A few of them aren't common as bonsai--black cherry, live oak and a few others. I also have some more traditional Asian species. Their design is far from "Japanese Traditional."

For my most valuable trees, which are collected Cedar elm and live oak, there isn't really all that much relative experience. What works for a black pine or trident (including design) won't work for an old Texas live oak. Some of us out here are flying by the seats of our pants as to what works with "new" species.

Not much you can do with large collected cedar elm, they are the toughest trees I've ever seen, with branches stiff as a board, no wiring after they're set. A little clip and grow is about it. I've had two.

keep it green,
Harry

 

[Mortalis]

We can dispute some of his conclusions, but there is no need to trivialize his findings.

I was not trivializing his findings. In fact I read some of his stuff because of this thread. I just think the attitude he held that we disrespect trees in bonsai is wrong. Some people may disrespect trees doing bonsai but bonsai in itself is not disrespect of trees. If anything we respect them more than your average person.

 

[Attila Soos]

I was not trivializing his findings. In fact I read some of his stuff because of this thread. I just think the attitude he held that we disrespect trees in bonsai is wrong. Some people may disrespect trees doing bonsai but bonsai in itself is not disrespect of trees. If anything we respect them more than your average person.

I agree with you on this.
I hope you didn't take my comment as being hostile. It's just that when we bring up the "grass mowing" argument, we inevitably sound more sarcastic than objective, and I was trying to avoid that in this thread.