drastic technique for small leaves

[Joe Dupre']

Mostly kidding, but this is what I've experienced. I collected this Chinese elm from the edge of a sugarcane field near my house. The farmers spray ditch banks every year to keep down the grass and small saplings. This tree is several years old ( about 1 and 1/2" base) and has had a few doses of herbicide............probably Round-up. It keeps fighting and coming back. The growth is really stunted and extremely dense. I went through this tree 3 weeks ago and thinned it aggressively. The growth came back in spades. I don't know how this tree will grow, but I'll keep an eye on it. Do NOT try Round-up on your Chinese elm!

 

[Gustavo Martins]

i find Chinese elms leaves reduce quite well although they’re not really that big to start off.
here is a picture comparing a leave from a shohin bonsai and one from a cutting which I am letting to grow free to fatten up. The cutting was taken from the bonsai so same genetics.

 

[leatherback]

frequent pruning will get you such dense twigging and resulting small leaves. I would not experiment with herbicides, tbh

 

[Joe Dupre']

I defintlely wouldn't use Round-up on purpose. I saw the nice trunk on this one and decided to take a chance. The foliage appears vigorous, just stunted and deformed.

 

[Forsoothe!]

It probably has some genetic damage due to some exposure to the Round Up. Take it as it is and assume the best: ploidy has changed and it lived. I would avoid tip pruning until I was sure what would happen, just grow it on.

 

[sorce]

I found one like that once.

Post in thread 'Local Species Awareness Program.' https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/local-species-awareness-program.20231/post-280252

A regular one, the I.D. of that thumb bowl of river Clay is about a penny wide.



I don't think the foliage will stay.

Mine died after I ripped it out in summer.

Sorce

 

[Shibui]

I have treated a number of rogue Chinese elms with glyphosate. They are very hard to kill and most will resprout after spraying. Small leaves and stunted growth is a common after effect of glyphosate. The damage is not permanent. After a year or 2 new growth returns to normal.

 

[leatherback]

genetic damage due to some exposure to the Round Up. Take it as it is and assume the best: ploidy has changed

yeah, that is not how genetics work.

 

[Ohmy222]

Not recommending it but my father sprays roundup around all his trees big and small so he doesn’t have to cut around them. Never hurts them. Everything from crape myrtles and azaleas to oaks and fruit trees

 

[penumbra]

I found Ulmus parvifolia to be highly resistant to glyphosate. Still I think it is insane to spray one unless you are trying to kill it.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Glyphosate, which is Roundup, Needs to come in contact with leaves or the living cambium of a tree or shrub in order to be absorbed in quantity to be effective. Sprayed around the base of a tree with intact bark will not harm the tree at all. Soil microbes and UV in sunlight rapidly decompose glyphosate.

@Forsoothe! - Glyphosate works by inhibiting the manufacture of 3 amino acids in the growing bud tips of plants. It does not interfere with the DNA. Glyphosate is highly unlikely to induce polyploidy in the sprayed plant. Any leaf miniaturization caused by Glyphosate is temporary, if the plant survives, in time normal growth will return.

You are probably thinking of Oryzalin and other dinitroaniline group herbicides. The dinitroaniline herbicides work by interfering with the growth of microtubules to disrupt growth. The dinitroaniline herbicides can be used to cause changes in polyploidy. Oryzalin and other dinitroaniline herbicides are MUCH safer to use for creating polyploids in plants than using colchicine. Oryzalin and other herbicides are designed to attack plant microtubules, where colchicine is dangerous as it preferentially attacks mammalian microtubules.

So if anyone out there wants to increase polyploidy in their plants, (hosta daylilies, or orchids for example) look for methods that use dinitroaniline rather than colchicine. Colchicine is dangerous for home use.

 

[penumbra]

Glyphosate, which is Roundup, Needs to come in contact with leaves or the living cambium of a tree or shrub in order to be absorbed in quantity to be effective.

Though it can put a hurting on green stemmed young trees like Laburnum. Probably young maple as well.

 

[Forsoothe!]

Glyphosate, which is Roundup, Needs to come in contact with leaves or the living cambium of a tree or shrub in order to be absorbed in quantity to be effective. Sprayed around the base of a tree with intact bark will not harm the tree at all. Soil microbes and UV in sunlight rapidly decompose glyphosate.

@Forsoothe! - Glyphosate works by inhibiting the manufacture of 3 amino acids in the growing bud tips of plants. It does not interfere with the DNA. Glyphosate is highly unlikely to induce polyploidy in the sprayed plant. Any leaf miniaturization caused by Glyphosate is temporary, if the plant survives, in time normal growth will return.

You are probably thinking of Oryzalin and other dinitroaniline group herbicides. The dinitroaniline herbicides work by interfering with the growth of microtubules to disrupt growth. The dinitroaniline herbicides can be used to cause changes in polyploidy. Oryzalin and other dinitroaniline herbicides are MUCH safer to use for creating polyploids in plants than using colchicine. Oryzalin and other herbicides are designed to attack plant microtubules, where colchicine is dangerous as it preferentially attacks mammalian microtubules.

So if anyone out there wants to increase polyploidy in their plants, (hosta daylilies, or orchids for example) look for methods that use dinitroaniline rather than colchicine. Colchicine is dangerous for home use.

Yes, you are correct.

 

[Leo in N E Illinois]

Though it can put a hurting on green stemmed young trees like Laburnum. Probably young maple as well.

The congested foliage on trees that survived glyphosate application is due to the imbalance of the amino acids; tyrosine, tryptophan and phenylalanine, whose manufacture in the new buds was inhibited by the glyphosate. In time, if the tree survives, the imbalance will decrease, and normal growth will return. Some species are more sensitive to glyphosate than others. Glyphosate works on actively growing tissues, so green stemmed plants, green leaves and new growing buds are points where the glyphosate gets absorbed, and it gets transported through the plant to the buds where it disrupts production of amino acids with aromatic carbon rings in their structures, like tyrosine, tryptophan and phenylalanine. Protein manufacture gets screwed up. If the tree survives it can take more than one growing season to clear out the imbalance.

 

[0soyoung]

I've had persistent problems with bindweed. I had some at the base of a landscape azalea. I stuffed the bindweed into a Tupperware container of RoundUp, and got this stunted growth thing happening to my azalea.

It demonstrates that glyphosate can be transferred from a treated plant to an untreated one via the roots. It is just unusual to continuously dose one plant (bindweed) as I did. Hence, I one cannot make a legal case about glyphosate being transmissible, contrary to common claims.

Nevertheless, it is fascinating in that the effects are similar to spraying with benzyl adenine, which is and exogenous cytokinin (auxin antagonist). Need to produce short internodes (keeping in mind that internode lengths are forever)?? RoundUp is a lot cheaper than BA. Now all that one needs to do to collect a fortune is figure out the non-lethal application rates (as a spay or root drench) and you're in the bonsai business!

 

[just.wing.it]

Hard to see much going on with the tree in that picture....but my Chinese Corker looks like that right now.

 

[NOZZLE HEAD]

The congested foliage on trees that survived glyphosate application is due to the imbalance of the amino acids; tyrosine, tryptophan and phenylalanine, whose manufacture in the new buds was inhibited by the glyphosate. In time, if the tree survives, the imbalance will decrease, and normal growth will return. Some species are more sensitive to glyphosate than others. Glyphosate works on actively growing tissues, so green stemmed plants, green leaves and new growing buds are points where the glyphosate gets absorbed, and it gets transported through the plant to the buds where it disrupts production of amino acids with aromatic carbon rings in their structures, like tyrosine, tryptophan and phenylalanine. Protein manufacture gets screwed up. If the tree survives it can take more than one growing season to clear out the imbalance.

This is way more detail than I would put in a response, and totally correct.

I see damage like this on many mature woody shrubs that are treated with glyphosate in fence rows and the like.

 

[NOZZLE HEAD]

I've had persistent problems with bindweed. I had some at the base of a landscape azalea. I stuffed the bindweed into a Tupperware container of RoundUp, and got this stunted growth thing happening to my azalea.

It demonstrates that glyphosate can be transferred from a treated plant to an untreated one via the roots. It is just unusual to continuously dose one plant (bindweed) as I did. Hence, I one cannot make a legal case about glyphosate being transmissible, contrary to common claims.

Nevertheless, it is fascinating in that the effects are similar to spraying with benzyl adenine, which is and exogenous cytokinin (auxin antagonist). Need to produce short internodes (keeping in mind that internode lengths are forever)?? RoundUp is a lot cheaper than BA. Now all that one needs to do to collect a fortune is figure out the non-lethal application rates (as a spay or root drench) and you're in the bonsai business!

I read a research paper a few years ago about the sub-lethal affects of glyphosate in sweet cherries.

It was a really expensive study because in the course of it they basically had to kill a bunch of mature cherry trees.

When they found the correct dose the above was the kind of damage they saw, but it really had no utlility as the range between no effect and a lethal dose was really narrow and very dependent on environmental conditions.

I realize you are probably joking, but if you want to mess around with a powerful cytokinin then look into thidiazuron.

 

[0soyoung]

This is way more detail than I would put in a response, and totally correct.

I see damage like this on many mature woody shrubs that are treated with glyphosate in fence rows and the like.

Yah. I agree.

Should we add that auxin is synthesized from tryptophan. Auxin is what makes long cells --> big leaves, long internodes?

 

[0soyoung]

I read a research paper a few years ago about the sub-lethal affects of glyphosate in sweet cherries.

It was a really expensive study because in the course of it they basically had to kill a bunch of mature cherry trees.

When they found the correct dose the above was the kind of damage they saw, but it really had no utlility as the range between no effect and a lethal dose was really narrow and very dependent on environmental conditions.

I realize you are probably joking, but if you want to mess around with a powerful cytokinin then look into thidiazuron.

Not totally joking as I think it would be just great to be able to manipulate plants to make bonsai - short internodes, fat and tapering trunks in something far less than a lifetime (actually less than the lifetime I have left). IMHO, bonsai is all about manipulating the species characteristics to produce an artistic and living end.

Why is the way it has been done for a few millennia the only way it can be done - strategically limit nitrogen availability, cut it, and keep limited lengths of root?