Clicio
Masterpiece
And if it doesn't fit, hammer it down!
Drastically different soil component sizes?
- Thread starter Bonsai Noodles
- Start date
Bonsai Noodles
Mame
Interesting... Do you mind sharing generally what you've found the most success with? Do you change this depending on what stage of development your trees are in?
Mikecheck123
Omono
Also not trying to start a heated debate, but the effect is easily demonstrated. In an extreme example, a layer of potting soil on top of a drainage layer of coarse bonsai mix will stay just as wet as the same layer without the drainage layer. It's as if it's not even there.
I'm sure less drastic size differences can mitigate the effect, but I'm still not convinced there's a benefit.
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
coh
Imperial Masterpiece
Me neither. Whether I use a "drainage layer" or not, I always find large amounts of roots that have penetrated to the bottom of the container.
Yes, multiple times but you’d have to search and find it as an observation in repotting posts. I’ve already violated my principles to not get involved in soil or fertilizer debates here.
Aw, come on - you're already in! Might as well have some fun with it!
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
These are my thoughts on particle sizes, you gotta go to it, I don't use wooden boxes.
www.bonsainut.com
Of the space in between particles, and this is the same as happens in a drainage layer, eventually the space between the roots growing around the particles gets filled by more roots, but root on root is cannibalistic at best. Perhaps Myc helps these root on root roots. But they are useless IMO. Better surrounded by soil.
Sorce
Root oxygenation and container choice
I use wooden boxes. They last a long time for me. I build in excellent drainage. I particularly like the way the boxes keep the high temperatures cooled off and on the opposite the boxes keep my cold and freezing temperatures a bit regulated. The boxes work best for me in winter. Myth? I don’t...
Of the space in between particles, and this is the same as happens in a drainage layer, eventually the space between the roots growing around the particles gets filled by more roots, but root on root is cannibalistic at best. Perhaps Myc helps these root on root roots. But they are useless IMO. Better surrounded by soil.
Sorce
sorce
Nonsense Rascal
Also interesting information.
Sorce
Sorce...what is 8822?
leatherback
The Treedeemer
I would bet it is a part number from a garage!
I should have known! Duh!
River's Edge
Masterpiece
Only if there is a significant difference in the particle size above and below does the perched water table apply. properly sifted with a drainage layer of slightly larger particles, not too deep, the difference is beneficial in allowing better drainage and gas exchange in the bottom of the pot.
Successful Bonsai is about the details ,not gross over generalizations that simply lead to circular arguments. There are two very in depth articles on this topic in the resources section of this forum. Those who are interested in facts can find them easily! Applying the facts correctly will get very positive results.
I use a drainage layer in all circumstances except very small containers. Always find roots at the bottom in the drainage layer and no problems with water tables sitting above. My grow beds have drainage layers, my grow boxes, Anderson flats etc! The whole nursery is set up that way.
Simply avoiding all the issues caused by mixed particle sizes, varying particle sizes, poor drainage, low gas exchange in the media.
The main point is the health of the plant and the structure of the root system for Bonsai purposes. What one can get away with while growing nursery stock is very different from creating the proper root structure for extended life in a Bonsai pot.
Particle shape determines the space between particles as much as the size. Larger irregular particles often lead to larger spaces and thicker roots. A technique used for exposed root development and larger specimens.
Clicio
Masterpiece
That's exactly what I think.
I have used Bonsai Jacks soil for several years. All of his particles are the same (1/4" +-). I have also used "Tiny Roots" soil which has a much smaller consistency....like 1/4"-1/16". Both drain well but it does seem like the Tiny Roots retains moisture a little better. I was told that the smaller particles makes for smaller roots, but I don't know that for a fact. Tiny roots is way more money by the way.
Deep Sea Diver
Masterpiece
All this is very interesting, yet it somehow feels like de jevu all over again.
Somehow I feel that discussing base media without simultaneously discussing personal fertilization and watering habits is taking things out of context. Too many variables... let alone drainage layers, repotting rationale, microclimate...
..... maybe I’m wrong and good horticulture is as simple as checking off all of the “separate” boxes?
Be safe, stay healthy everyone!
DSD sends
Somehow I feel that discussing base media without simultaneously discussing personal fertilization and watering habits is taking things out of context. Too many variables... let alone drainage layers, repotting rationale, microclimate...
..... maybe I’m wrong and good horticulture is as simple as checking off all of the “separate” boxes?
Be safe, stay healthy everyone!
DSD sends
roberthu
Chumono
Actually if a plant grows well in certain substrate, then it has a purpose. After all, the trees are the judges. We are not.
roberthu
Chumono
Being a Mirai subscriber, I now call it "aeration layer". Ryan has been promoting the concept of water and oxygen balance for a long time and I think he's statement makes a lot of sense. Having a coarse layer at the bottom promotes better aeration through the holes thus promotes healthier root growth. Water will drain just fine with or without the coarse layer as long as the hold isn't clogged.
SU2
Omono
It's so funny you've posted this as I came to this subforum to make a thread on this very topic!!!!
In @Walter Pall 's legendary water/substrate/feed article ("In Plain English"), same-size aggregate components are advocated. I have found, over the years, that I dislike this....however I should put the big caveat here that, unlike Pall, I'm not growing in lil bonsai containers or even what most of you guys would consider 'grow containers', so maximizing feeders//volume isn't as critical for my trees since they're in the earlier phase of their development therefore some common themes are:
- rapid/forced growth in big containers, with
- relatively frequent 'hard cuts', both to roots&shoots, over the years while creating initial 'skeletons' of the rootplate & the canopy
So, since I make my own mixes (btw Re the scoria-dust you mention--- just use a screen & hose, you should be doing that anyways it's important to rinse otherwise you can sometimes be inadvertently adding a ton of fines to your containers!), this concept of particle-size is something I've pondered a while and have found I actually prefer irregular/mis-matched particle sizing. I find my grow-boxes better with larger particles, in general, on the bottom (and ridiculous drainage, if it's not a rootmaker type container) so 'skew' it that way (and often use a different mix with some finer stuff as a top-dress) but, throughout "the main rootzone" I like having interspersed chunks of nonporous rock(porous scoria still does this job fine enough though) because, when doing root-prunes, it lets you "get at" the rootplate better and structure/clip/etc to help set it up better, earlier.
I also no longer make any mix w/o including, at least a lil, of the following:
- shredded tan sphagnum, and
- shredded 'mini pine bark nuggets' (this stuff is the myco's favorite, at least around my garden!)
Should note that anything going into a container is thoroughly screened&rinsed beforehand, the only fines are things like a handful of compost or worm castings as top-dress on some species during their strongest grow-periods but I can't help but assume that such fines are being broken down and used as they settle-through and I don't use much. Have crazy amounts of worms in all containers (well all closed containers, they don't seem to like growbags as much..)
SC1989
Mame
Old post but, ..... smaller the pot, shallower = you can't afford it to drain at different rates. I will use large lava layer in a larger or taller container so it breathes better.
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