Dry Ice for Keeping Trees Cold on Move

[hemmy]

Well, it sounds like Ryder truck is going to screw me over on the reefer truck for our move. I had one reserved, but they weren’t supposed to promise me one or they gave it away to a bigger corporate client. So I might get stuck with a straight 26’ box truck driving my plants across I-40 and the 120deg desert. Ryder is trying to source one and I’m on a waiting list for Penske. But it doesn’t look good for our Monday departure.

Has anyone used dry ice to cool large spaces or double box something and use the dry ice to cool but not freeze? There is a commercial place where I get 10lb blocks in large quantities. I’m thinking I could break it into smaller chunks and put it in the boxes but not contacting the trees. Or maybe just use 50-100lbs in the back of the truck to try and keep it under 90-100deg during the day. Then have spare coolers to make the trip. I was going to bag the trees for humidity and transpiration, but if I can’t keep it cool, then I think the bags are out.

Plants are a mix of deciduous, tropical, broadleaf evergreen, conifer and succulents. Trip is 1602 miles from from California to KS through AZ, NM, TX, and OK.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

 

[BrianBay9]

First thought is that dry ice in a confined space will fill it with carbon dioxide. Won't hurt your plants, but be sure to air it out before you go in.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

We get large shipments at work with dry ice and some kind of spongepack that's frozen but stays at close to 0 degrees instead of -80°C.

And yes, the CO2 alarms go off when we get big shipments: a headache or feeling tired means you'll have to stop and vent right then and there. One of the issues we have is that it draws water from the air and produces chunks of ice.
Dry ice will freeze everything it touches. To temperatures that will damage the roots. So some layers of styrofoam can be a good aid.

There are known cases of co2 toxicity in plants. They do in fact need oxygen. But I'm not sure when and how that takes place.

 

[hemmy]

There are known cases of co2 toxicity in plants. They do in fact need oxygen. But I'm not sure when and how that takes place.

Thanks for the heads up. I’m looking at grow room uses now.

The Effects of Too Much CO2 In a Grow Room | Atlas Scientific

A grow room, also known as a growth chamber, indoor garden, indoor farm, or sometimes a plant factory, is a specialized room, located indoors, to allow plants to grow under controlled conditions.

atlas-scientific.com

maybe I should pick up a CO2 alarm along with remote thermometers.

i was thinking of tarping the plants in the back of the truck to hold in some cool. But I wouldn’t want to displace too much oxygen with the CO2 sinking to the floor.

 

[penumbra]

This may be a long shot, but you might look into evaporator coolers. These can be quite large, like those used in greenhouses. They can be quite small, like those considered as personal air conditioners. Some even have batteries that charge in a USB port.
The dry ice might work for you but you will probably need to vent it often. It may in fact be your best option, but don't discount the use of regular ice.

 

[ShadyStump]

I was thinking the roll around swamp cooler too. A smaller battery operated one in the back may do the trick, but often the key with these is air circulation. That would mean you'd have to find a way to for the cool, moist air to escape the box. Otherwise you're just adding humidity to closed system.
That said, it might be easier to find a ventilated box truck than a reefer truck. A ventilated truck would reduce the trapped heat even without cooling, and you could ice the water reservoir in the swamp cooler to increase cooling efficiency too.

Why the roundaboutish route? You might be able to find cooler temps to travel through by heading north first. Might add some miles/time, but could be easier on your trees.

 

[karen82]

I wonder if something open like a horse trailer might work better. Of course they would dry out quickly and would need watering often.

 

[Paradox]

If you must do the dry ice. I would put the ice itself in open boxes or even coolers with the lids removed spaced out in the truck between your trees. That way the trees are protected from contact with the ice and the ice can cool the interior of the truck.

Do be careful of CO2 as mentioned.

Another idea might be a large van with air conditioning?

 

[hemmy]

This may be a long shot, but you might look into evaporator coolers.

Thanks! Looking at them now. Unfortunately with leave time, I can only buy what is in stock locally, no Amazon. But I’m looking at portable work fans with rechargeable batters to move the cool air from ice or dry ice.

If you must do the dry ice. I would put the ice itself in open boxes or even coolers with the lids removed spaced out in the truck between your trees.

That is the way I’m thinking about doing it. With battery operated fans to circulate the air. I was also thinking about tarping off the back portion of the truck with the plants to better trap the cool air. I’ll have remote thermometers, so I could open and close the coolers as needed.

 

[hemmy]

Do be careful of CO2 as mentioned.

Another idea might be a large van with air conditioning?

I haven’t found a remote CO2 meter locally, but I can get a house meter to stick in the back. Being in the back of the truck, I’m hoping opening the door should vent it nicely. But I’ll definitely not be taking a huge breath or jumping in the back right after it opens!

 

[hemmy]

I was thinking the roll around swamp cooler too. A smaller battery operated one in the back may do the trick, but often the key with these is air circulation. That would mean you'd have to find a way to for the cool, moist air to escape the box. Otherwise you're just adding humidity to closed system.
That said, it might be easier to find a ventilated box truck than a reefer truck. A ventilated truck would reduce the trapped heat even without cooling, and you could ice the water reservoir in the swamp cooler to increase cooling efficiency too.

I’ll ask today about ventilated trucks, if they don’t have the reefer. It would help a little. But since 2/3rds of the truck is furniture, I don’t want to get them soaking wet with a swamp cooler.

I have a 12000 BTU portable air conditioner, but I’m not sure I could power it with enough batteries and an inverter.

Why the roundaboutish route? You might be able to find cooler temps to travel through by heading north first.

The 2 main routes are I-40 through AZ/NM then cut across TX/OK panhandles or go up through NV/UT to connect to I-70 through CO. I got scared off the I-70 route remembering all the blown over semis that I have seen in Utah. I don’t think I-80 would save us much for temps and I-90 is just too far North. The forecast for I-40 in AZ and NM is looking like below 95-99F and cooler once you gain elevation.

 

[hemmy]

Another idea might be a large van with air conditioning?

It’s just me and the wife driving and I couldn’t get her to drive the van while I drove the truck. She thinks because I fall asleep the first 5 min of riding in a car, I can’t drive long distances. I drove passenger vans all over the western US for geology and paleo trips in college.

Worst case some boxes go to her studio and trees go to a local nursery to board, until we drive our minivan back and then it all gets crammed in, maybe with a tow behind for the boxes.

 

[hemmy]

Check this post out on CO2 calcs

Can dry ice cool a room?

Answer (1 of 7): The following calculations are estimates only. Dry ice sublimates with a surface temperature of -78.5 deg. C. The heat of vaporization of dry ice to drive this solid-to-gas phase change is 139 cal/gm of dry ice. The Heat Capacity of air at 1 atmosphere and 18 deg. C., is 0.2402 ...

www.quora.com

“The following calculations are estimates only.

Dry ice sublimates with a surface temperature of -78.5 deg. C. The heat of vaporization of dry ice to drive this solid-to-gas phase change is 139 cal/gm of dry ice. The Heat Capacity of air at 1 atmosphere and 18 deg. C., is 0.2402 cal/g deg. C. This means that one pound of dry ice (454 g.) would require 63,106 cal. of energy to sublimate into CO2 gas. Since the amount of air in a typical bedroom has approximately the same mass as a child who sleeps there (say about 50 pounds), or 22,700 g. of air.

The amount of energy absorbed by the dry ice to sublimate into gaseous CO2, is equal to the amount of energy removed from the air. Heat gained = Heat lost, or 63,106 cal. = 22,700 g * delta T. Assuming perfect heat transfer and negligible specific heat rate change for the air over the temperature drop, the air in the room would cool off approximately 2.78 deg. C. for each pound of dry ice sublimated.

Additionally, the CO2 gas released into the room has a heat capacity of 0.849 cal/deg C. The 454 g of CO2 would warm up to the equilibrium temperature of the room. The temperature rise of the 454 g. of CO2 from -78.5 to the final temperature can be calculated. Heat Gain by CO2 = Heat Loss from Air.

454 g * 0.849 * Delta T = 22,700 g * (18-(-78.5)-Delta T). Solve for Delta T and you also get an additional air temperature drop of 12.58 deg. C.

The 2.78 deg. C. from sublimation and the 12.6 deg of air cooling, would drop the temperature in the room approximately 15.4 deg. C., or about 28 deg. F. per pound of dry ice.

This method for cooling your room is not recommended because if evenly mixed, the concentration of CO2 in the room could quickly reach harmful or even lethal levels because per pound, or 454 g, of dry ice, in 22,700 g of Air produces approximately 20,000 ppm CO2. At 70,000 to 100,000 ppm CO2, people begin to suffer effects of CO2 toxicity. CO2 concentrations above 100,000 ppm, quickly results in death. CO2 has a molecular weight of 44 gm/mole, which is denser than the average atmospheric mass of about 28 gm/mole, so the CO2 would fill the room with CO2 from the floor up, displacing the breathable oxygen even faster.

Besides all of this, using dry ice to refrigerate a house or even a single room, would become quite expensive compared to running an AC System.” Lon Bruse

 

[Paradox]

However you decide to do it @hemmy, good luck with the move.

 

[hemmy]

I figured I should finally get around to updating my moving experience. I was very freaked out about driving my plants through the desert. I tried to get a reefer truck but they were non-existent in Southern California in the summer. I was promised one, but it fell through, then they found me one last minute but it ended up being broken! However, I should say that despite the rollercoaster ride of emotion, Ryder actually gave us a decent discount for the inconvenience. We took a 26’ straight box truck and drove from SoCal to KS and back for WAY cheaper than a one-way UHaul truck. We ended up getting lucky on the weather and except for Eastern Cali/Western AZ on I-40 when it was 105-108F, the rest of the trip through AZ, NM, TX and KS was 80s-90sF.

Truck was absolutely packed floor to ceiling for about 20’ and then I put up a plastic barrier and put in 2 large storage totes with small trees/plants. Then I packed in the remaining trees. If I had more time, I should have built a bench to stack more. The large nursery cans went on the couple feet of floor space and then I wedged 2 pallets across the width of the floor. I strapped the rest of the trees to the pallets. It was a bumpy ride across I-40 but everything was so tight and didn’t budge.

I bought a good cooler for dry ice and some cheap ones with the lid removed to to hold the dry ice for active cooling. I also bought a battery operated fan to move air.

 

[hemmy]

I think the truck being loaded so tight and sitting overnight in the mid-60s F. Really helped insulate it. I bought ~80lbs of dry ice and used less than half the first day. The remote thermometers on the floor never got over low 90s F and the around the open coolers was in the 80s F.

The truck was governed at 65mph but we struggled to even hit 50mph going up the various mountains which I didn’t plan for on our trip time.

It was a long first day to hit Flagstaff and then an even longer day/night to get to eastern KS. I had left over dry ice and used some of the original dry ice for the return trip.

There weren’t any plant casualties and I only cracked one cheap ceramic pot when I banged it on loading.

 

[hemmy]

On the return trip to Cali, I actually hauled a few ficus trees back for a friend. I made a poly tent at the front and put in dry ice and the fan. Now with truck empty, the daytime temps in the back of the truck were about 5-10deg above the outside temps including when we drove through the 110F desert. But the poly tent with dry ice and soaked pots never got above 95F. I secured the trees to another pallet that was duct taped to the floor and strapped to the walls.

 

[hemmy]

I bought a good cooler for dry ice and some cheap ones with the lid removed to to hold the dry ice for active cooling. I also bought a battery operated fan to move air.

I also had a tank sprayer to wet the plants and keep humidity up.

 

[hemmy]

This was also my first time with a box truck across country. Bring a glove for the pump handles. It also seemed like the high flow rate at some pumps kicked off the nozzles. I had best luck with Loves stations and getting the whole tanks filled without kicking it off. Also check with your credit card since most truck stops pre-charge for ~$300 and one card consistently didn’t work.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Lol glad it worked out, but next time drive at night (?)