Dwarf cultivars vs uncultivated species

[Khaiba]

Hi fellow enthusiasts

a topic that I find very little information on online but keeps bugging me is: are dwarf cultivars more suited for bonsai or not?
Now, the general consensus seems to be that dwarf cultivars take much longer to develop but have naturally smaller foliage making them well suited for bonsai.
However, many (if not most) famous or "typical" bonsai as well as commercial bonsai imported from Japan are either the uncultivated variety or the cultivar isn't mentioned.

A good example would be Mr. Kimuras famous Hinoki cypress forest:

I have yet to succeed in finding out if the Hinokis Mr. Kimura uses are dwarf cultivars or not (I know he grew them from cuttings though).

The growth rate of dwarf Hinoki cypresses for example differs immensely from the growth rate of the normal Chamacyparis obt. and this is true for many other species.
I know bonsai is all about patience, but I wouldn't mind developing trees in much less than half the amount of time if the outcome is just as satisfying.

So, do you guys generally prefer the dwarf varieties or the original when growing/developing your own bonsai?
Is the cultivars slow growth worth the denser and smaller foliage in your opinion?

Also, I am currently planning on doing several forest groups from very young plants/cuttings and am unsure whether to use cultivars or not.
If anyone has experience with some of the following species, I'd really appreciate any advice on what cultivars to use (or the uncultivated varieties) :
- Juniperus chinensis
- Hinoki Cypress
- Acer palmatum
- Pines (JWP, JBP, Pinus densiflora and Scot's Pine)
- Cryptomeria japonica

 

[William N. Valavanis]

The hinoki cypress Mr. Kimura uses is Tsuyama hinoki cypress, Chamaecyparis obtusa 'Tsuyama'. It is a dwarf cultivar. By the way, the Dwarf hinoki cypress used in the US is NOT the hinoki used in Japan. In Japan they use the common hinoki cypress, Chamaecyparis obtusa, the giant species.
Also, please note the photo you used is NOT the original rock planting by Mr. Kimura. It is a duplicate he sold.

Bill

 

[Khaiba]

The hinoki cypress Mr. Kimura uses is Tsuyama hinoki cypress, Chamaecyparis obtusa 'Tsuyama'. It is a dwarf cultivar. By the way, the Dwarf hinoki cypress used in the US is NOT the hinoki used in Japan. In Japan they use the common hinoki cypress, Chamaecyparis obtusa, the giant species.

Thanks for the reply!
I'm still a bit confused, however. If I understand correctly the japanese use the original Hinoki cypress; except for Mr. Kimura who uses the dwarf cultivar "Tsuyama".
According to Leo in N E Illinois from his answer in a previous post (https://www.bonsainut.com/threads/tsuyama-hinoki.40090/), varieties in Japan are not the cultivars as we understand, but the common species found in a certain region, meaning they grow about as tall and fast as the original species. If we follow this logic, Tsuyama would not be a dwarf cultivar, would it?
This is another unclarity that I have come across quite often. I own an Itoigawa Juniper for example. Should it behave like any other common juniperus chinensis (uncultivated)?

Greetings,
Khai

 

[Shibui]

I've mostly stopped using dwarf varieties for bonsai. They may have smaller leaves but they also generally have much slower growth rates so it takes forever to grow a trunk and then longer to develop branches.
If you happen to have a well developed dwarf type they are really good because the slower growth means less trimming, etc to keep it in shape.

 

[Khaiba]

Anyone know about the Japanese varieties like Itoigawa juniper , JWP Arakawa, Hinoki cypress 'Tsuyama' etc.? Are their growth rates comparable to the original Juniperus chinensis?

 

[meushi]

The shimpaku (plain, kishu, itoigawa) are dwarf varieties of the Chinese juniper and their growth rate is slower than the original Juniperus chinensis. Technically itoigawa isn't a cultivar, it's an area of origin. There is genetic variation depending on which specific juniper was propagated, and it shows through foliage density and scale size.

The arakawa maple isn't a dwarf variety, if you plant it in your garden it will eventually reach 2 to 4 meters in height. Some dwarf Japanese maples are used for bonsai in Japan, the good ones cost an arm and a leg. I have been growing a dwarf maple (chiyo hime - little princess) for over 10 years in grow boxes and in the ground, the growth isn't spectacular. I have a beni maiko Japanese maple that thickened about the same in a grow box over the last 24 months. It also barked up in a weird way: there's mature bark from the nebari up to about an inch, then the trunk is all green and it barks again 2 inches above.

Dwarf JBP... the kotobuki has the reputation of not budding much so it's hard to thicken through the use of a sacrificial trunk. The senjumaru cultivar buds profusely so one can train it with a sacrificial trunk.

Dwarf JWP... there's kokonoe and zuisho. I have 2 kokonoe young whips, but I don't have enough experience with them to have an opinion yet. Zuisho supposedly thickens fast after a few years, I can't give an opinion as I don't own one.

 

[Adair M]

Dwarf varieties typically have shorter internodes, and more branches at each internode than the ordinary species. That’s both a blessing and a curse!

oftentimes, the dwarf varieties require different management techniques than the ordinary types do. So, if you do something, for example defoliate a Japanese maple, a dwarf variety might not respond by sending out new shoots like the regular ones would do.

The names varieties must be cloned by layering, by cuttings, or by grafting. Grafting is common by the large production nurseries. But they are not growing with bonsai in mind, so the grafts are often high. In a landscape, it doesn’t matter, but that propagation method makes them useless for bonsai. (unless you want to take layers or cuttings. Just be aware that some don’t layer well, or grow from cuttings!)

Generally speaking, most bonsai are the regular trees, not the named varieties. There are exceptions, of course. Most JWP we see are grafts because seedlings often have poor foliage. To have a nice one “on its own roots” is relatively rare, and raises it’s value tremendously.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

The shimpaku (plain, kishu, itoigawa) are dwarf varieties of the Chinese juniper and their growth rate is slower than the original Juniperus chinensis. Technically itoigawa isn't a cultivar, it's an area of origin. There is genetic variation depending on which specific juniper was propagated, and it shows through foliage density and scale size.

I don't think they're dwarf varieties, because they're in no sense smaller than chinensis, and I don't see much difference in growth habits either. My itoigawa grow as fast as any other juniper.
In a peat based soil they even outgrow most junipers I own.

 

[Khaiba]

Generally speaking, most bonsai are the regular trees, not the named varieties. There are exceptions, of course.

Finally, someone confirmed what I was suspecting for a while now!
It is extremely difficult to find the unnamed varieties (at least here in Germany) for many species, unfortunately.
I've been searching online for the original Hinoki Cypress, Chinese Juniper and Japanese White Pine for quite some time.
For the forest groups I'm planning I was originally thinking of buying several young plants of the dwarf varieties of each species (e.g 9x chamaecyparis obt. 'nana gracilis', 7x juniperus chinensis 'Blaauw'). As these grow much slower than the unnamed variety, I've instead ordered some seeds of these online, in the hope that they would actually outgrow the plants in 2-3 years.
Am I right to assume that the ones I get from seed are essentially the unnamed variety? And would you recommend doing forests from seeds, knowing that they might behave different (individually)? The alternative would be to buy a (probably expensive) bonsai of the species and make cuttings from it.

 

[TomB]

Juniperus chinensis 'Blaauw’ is not a dwarf cultivar. It is very similar to Shimpaku junipers in terms of size, vigour, growth habit, reaction to bonsai techniques, and foliage characteristics. It differs in that the foliage is more blue-green in colour. It’s often used for bonsai. It will normally be propagated from cuttings, not grafted. If you have access to that, it’s a good choice.

 

[Adair M]

Finally, someone confirmed what I was suspecting for a while now!
It is extremely difficult to find the unnamed varieties (at least here in Germany) for many species, unfortunately.
I've been searching online for the original Hinoki Cypress, Chinese Juniper and Japanese White Pine for quite some time.
For the forest groups I'm planning I was originally thinking of buying several young plants of the dwarf varieties of each species (e.g 9x chamaecyparis obt. 'nana gracilis', 7x juniperus chinensis 'Blaauw'). As these grow much slower than the unnamed variety, I've instead ordered some seeds of these online, in the hope that they would actually outgrow the plants in 2-3 years.
Am I right to assume that the ones I get from seed are essentially the unnamed variety? And would you recommend doing forests from seeds, knowing that they might behave different (individually)? The alternative would be to buy a (probably expensive) bonsai of the species and make cuttings from it.

With seeds, there’s always some genetic variation between each seed Since they are produced sexually. With cuttings or layers, each would have identical DNA, so they would be more consistent.

 

[Davidlpf]

Hi fellow enthusiasts

a topic that I find very little information on online but keeps bugging me is: are dwarf cultivars more suited for bonsai or not?
Now, the general consensus seems to be that dwarf cultivars take much longer to develop but have naturally smaller foliage making them well suited for bonsai.

Generally speaking yes, some draft cultivars grow slower, but sometimes you find one blessed by the gods, like ulmus parvifolia var. "seiju", bougainvillea var. "mini thai" or acer palmatum var "kotohime", that keep the leaves and the internodes small despite the fact that grow in a reasonable good rate.

Anyway, "the more sweat in training the less you bleed in battle" training a slow growth cultivar may be a pain in the ass, but in long term, is easiest to keep in small sizes. So chose your battles wisely.

Greetings

 

[Shibui]

Am I right to assume that the ones I get from seed are essentially the unnamed variety? And would you recommend doing forests from seeds, knowing that they might behave different (individually)? The alternative would be to buy a (probably expensive) bonsai of the species and make cuttings from it.

Plants grown from seed will have the genes of both mother and father. When you get seed from a named variety you only know who the mother was. Father could be the same plant or another random one nearby. Genetics says that quite a few of the offspring will look similar to the mother, some like the father and some like the grandparents with occasional odd ones thrown in for good measure.

 

[meushi]

I don't think they're dwarf varieties, because they're in no sense smaller than chinensis, and I don't see much difference in growth habits either. My itoigawa grow as fast as any other juniper.
In a peat based soil they even outgrow most junipers I own.

Wild chinensis ultimately grows to 65' tall, the shimpaku varieties usually reach 3'... they're considered dwarf varieties. What you usually see in garden center are the small varieties of chinensis that reach 4' to 7' tall, or mislabelled pfitzeriana (hybrid of chinensis and sabina).

Edit: It's also my experience (and all the Japanese information points towards it as well) that the more you water a shimpaku, the better it grows. I experimented ages ago with an itoigawa whip in a double colander setup where the outside container was filled with organic ferts and some peat as a binder. The whip grew and thickened at an amazing speed.

 

[rockm]

Some dwarf cultivars have tighter branching and leaf internodes, particularly dwarf varieties of Chinese elm. As mentioned, that's not always a good thing...I've seen some older "Seiju" elms that are a pain to keep because of that. The branching and leaves are so congested, it can be a four day job to prune and clear those congested branches.

 

[Bonsai Nut]

Finally, someone confirmed what I was suspecting for a while now!
It is extremely difficult to find the unnamed varieties (at least here in Germany) for many species, unfortunately.
I've been searching online for the original Hinoki Cypress, Chinese Juniper and Japanese White Pine for quite some time.
For the forest groups I'm planning I was originally thinking of buying several young plants of the dwarf varieties of each species (e.g 9x chamaecyparis obt. 'nana gracilis', 7x juniperus chinensis 'Blaauw'). As these grow much slower than the unnamed variety, I've instead ordered some seeds of these online, in the hope that they would actually outgrow the plants in 2-3 years.
Am I right to assume that the ones I get from seed are essentially the unnamed variety? And would you recommend doing forests from seeds, knowing that they might behave different (individually)? The alternative would be to buy a (probably expensive) bonsai of the species and make cuttings from it.

Just to clarify the use of terms:

A "variety" is a naturally occurring species subset that has unique distinguishing characteristics, and those unique distinguishing characteristics reproduce in the wild. For example, if all cherry trees have red fruit, but in one valley cherry trees have evolved to have black fruit, and the black fruit trees reproduce naturally with black fruit offspring, the black fruit trees would be a "variety" of the species.

A "cultivar" is non-naturally occurring species subset that has unique distinguishing characteristics caused by artificial selection. Using the prior example, lets say in the same valley a single seedling was found that had a chance recessive genetic mutation that caused blue fruit, and that seedling was removed to a greenhouse where it was propagated via cutting until there were 1000's of clones. If these clones were registered and named (for example "cherry tree 'blue fruit'") they would be a cultivar. However if the cultivar was ever allowed to reproduce, it is likely that most/all its offspring would be black fruit offspring.

 

[Davidlpf]

Some dwarf cultivars have tighter branching and leaf internodes, particularly dwarf varieties of Chinese elm. As mentioned, that's not always a good thing...I've seen some older "Seiju" elms that are a pain to keep because of that. The branching and leaves are so congested, it can be a four day job to prune and clear those congested branches.

They're the exact kind of troubles that I love!! IMHO it's always better to have too many to prune rather few options to keep.

 

[rockm]

They're the exact kind of troubles that I love!! IMHO it's always better to have too many to prune rather few options to keep.

You've not seen a congested seiju...there are not choices, just knots of tiny shoots sprouting from EVERYWHERE--none offering any real options since there are so, so many of those shoots growing into and against one another--I'm talking hundreds and hundreds not dozens... . There is such a thing as too much choice.

 

[Davidlpf]

You've not seen a congested seiju...there are not choices, just knots of tiny shoots sprouting from EVERYWHERE--none offering any real options since there are so, so many of those shoots growing into and against one another--I'm talking hundreds and hundreds not dozens... . There is such a thing as too much choice.

Yes, I haven't, yet. I try to keep the beast tamed click,click If you have any seiju elm that you are tired of, send it to me, I'll take care, I don't mind pruning at all.

Greetings from the heating hell of Spain