Dwarf Japanese Red Pine - Discussion

[Paradox]

Looking for input on this Japanese Red Pine I found at a local nursery. Its got a nice fat trunk and some nice structure to start so I thought I would give it a try and see what I can make of it. I did my best to get some pictures of the branching, other views are hard to get unless I to cut branches off which I dont really want to do yet.

It was very dense and bushy with lots of branches so I pruned a few of them off that I thought wouldnt contribute to the final design so I could get a better look. I can make the picture with the lines bigger if needed.

I think there are 2 possible ways to go

1. Follow the general direction of the trunk (red line) and do a semi-cascade. The problem is the trunk where the red line is pointing has a rather large bulge in it.

2. Cut off the trunk at the bulge and go with the trunk going to the right (blue line) and try to get that branch larger to taper better with the large trunk.

Thoughts?



Trunk Options


This one show left branching and bulge from above

 

[Dav4]

That's a heck of a trunk! I think the best way to proceed would be to cut down the container to soil level, expose the upper nebari, and view the tree from different sides and see if something jumps out at you. Feel free to post more pics if you do this. FWIW, this one seems to have ALOT of potential, so taking your time is warranted.

Also, when you prune off pine branches, leave a stub instead of cutting flush. It heals better, and looks better after the stub has been jinned.

 

[october]

You found this beautiful, awesome trunked, healthy red pine at a local nursery?

Nice material. I know that sometimes material that looks very promising, may very well be. However, upon closer inspection, it might be extremely challenging to create a nice bonsai image.

Here are a couple of virts. An informal upright or a cascade might be the ways to go. However, I do not think it will be easy. It wil take a heavy amount of branch removal and much back budding. If the tree can survive that much work and you are willing to spend many years on this tree. I think it will be very rewarding.

Here are a couple of rough ideas. I think I might be leaning towards the informal upright.

Rob

 

[Jason_mazzy]

This may be a perfect grafting tree

 

[fore]

Man, Nice pickup Dario! I like Robs idea of the informal upright a whole lot! Great virt Rob!

 

[Paradox]

Thanks for the replies and thanks for the verts Rob.

I was and am still leaning more toward the informal upright at the moment, but wanted to know other opinions.

Yes I realize that this tree will take many years to be anything close to being a "finished" tree.
However that is how I feel I will learn: by taking a tree and working with it for many years to make it into something. I think it does have a good shot at being a very nice tree some day, if I can avoid screwing it up...lol

I also realize it will be a slow process in order to have the best chance of survival for the tree.
I am not going to do any more work on this tree this year since I already took off a few branches. If anything Ill slip pot it into a larger pot if it needs it until next year. Next year I will put it into a better training pot. If all goes well and it survives, the following year Ill take off more branches but not too many. Ive got a scots pine that is on a similar time program, just a couple of years ahead of this one. Little bit at a time and lots of patience.

Have to say though that trunk is very exciting!

@fore Thanks but Im not Dario lol

 

[Poink88]

Awesome find...and I wish it is mine

 

[JudyB]

@fore Thanks but Im not Dario lol

Yeah Chris, if it were Dario's tree, he'd already have it down to the lowest 3 branches... or 2....

(yeah, it's a joke, not a slam...)

Paradox, I also think this has amazing potential. And you found it at a regular nursery? JRP is on my short list, but not knowing the specie, I will probably start with something less ambitious. But I applaud your thinking, that it's a good way to learn.

 

[fredtruck]

I think this is a variety of red pine called an umbracilifera. I had one of these for a number of years. It is already grafted, as you can see by the differences in bark. If it is an umbracilifera, the branching is not typical pine, but is closer to a deciduous tree. This makes it very difficult to style. You are most likely better off working with it as is--if it is indeed an umbracilifera.

Another name for this pine is a Tanyosho pine, or table top pine. Mine was originally styled by Ben Oki. Here is a picture of it in 2008:

 

[fore]

Thanks for the replies and thanks for the verts Rob.

I was and am still leaning more toward the informal upright at the moment, but wanted to know other opinions.

Yes I realize that this tree will take many years to be anything close to being a "finished" tree.
However that is how I feel I will learn: by taking a tree and working with it for many years to make it into something. I think it does have a good shot at being a very nice tree some day, if I can avoid screwing it up...lol

I also realize it will be a slow process in order to have the best chance of survival for the tree.
I am not going to do any more work on this tree this year since I already took off a few branches. If anything Ill slip pot it into a larger pot if it needs it until next year. Next year I will put it into a better training pot. If all goes well and it survives, the following year Ill take off more branches but not too many. Ive got a scots pine that is on a similar time program, just a couple of years ahead of this one. Little bit at a time and lots of patience.

Have to say though that trunk is very exciting!

@fore Thanks but Im not Dario lol

Oh shoot! That's a bit embarrassing! lol Same comment though Paradox, a great find!

 

[JudyB]

I think this is a variety of red pine called an umbracilifera. I had one of these for a number of years. It is already grafted, as you can see by the differences in bark. If it is an umbracilifera, the branching is not typical pine, but is closer to a deciduous tree. This makes it very difficult to style. You are most likely better off working with it as is--if it is indeed an umbracilifera.

Another name for this pine is a Tanyosho pine, or table top pine. Mine was originally styled by Ben Oki. Here is a picture of it in 2008:

View attachment 36261

Do you have a current photo? Neat tree, would love to see the progress.

 

[fredtruck]

The tree died very suddenly in December of 2010 in a matter of about 3 weeks. The roots looked fine, which led me to believe it was a fungus attack. I do have pictures of it in 2010, of course, but it looked almost exactly the same as it did in 2008. The key feature of these trees is the exposed network of branches under the needles. The Emperor of Japan uses these trees, sort of as a line of sentries on the main road to the royal palace. These trees all look the same. Ben Oki told me to style it as a flat top pine, which I did.

 

[Poink88]

Yeah Chris, if it were Dario's tree, he'd already have it down to the lowest 3 branches... or 2....

LOL. Judy knows me too well now.

 

[NewWorldBonsai]

Cool little pine, I'm looking forward to the progression of this.

 

[Klytus]

I suspect it's grafted onto a stock the width and length of a pencil with perhaps two roots that curve upwards at an unnattractive angle.

 

[Vance Wood]

I suspect it's grafted onto a stock the width and length of a pencil with perhaps two roots that curve upwards at an unnattractive angle.

Maybe buit I see no evidence of that or reason, Red Pines are not that rare.

 

[Paradox]

@ Judy Thanks. Yes I found it at what I would consider a "higher end" landscape nursery, meaning its not a bargain basement sort of place or Home Depot/Lowes type place.

@ FredTruck The tag says its variety is Pinus densiflora "Jane Kluis".
http://www.missouribotanicalgarden....ails/kc/d918/pinus-densiflora-jane-kluis.aspx

@Klytus Since almost everything is grafted I had assumed this would be too. I dug down into the soil looking for the signature bump and didnt find one so I found the nursery manager and specifically asked whether it was grafted. I was told that it was not grafted. I can find no evidence of a graft on it so far, but I havent totally exposed the roots yet.

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Red pines on their own roots is not all that odd. It's a pretty vigorous grower. I prefer them above all pines personally, but finding worthy ones is always hard. Have fun with this one.

V

 

[Paradox]

Red pines on their own roots is not all that odd. It's a pretty vigorous grower. I prefer them above all pines personally, but finding worthy ones is always hard. Have fun with this one.

V

Thanks V
Yes, finding material with possible potential can be a challenge. Bringing out that potential is an even bigger challenge. Hopefully I can figure it out.

 

[Victrinia Ridgeway]

Fortunately they back-bud with the same enthusiasm as a JBP. So you can chase back your growth where you need to without too much trouble, getting it thinned enough for you to be able to see into it, and let light into it is a good first step. Grand designs like Rob suggested are a wonderful inspiration... But getting into the business of it and seeing what's really there is the first step.

When working on a tree I don't know yet I deal with those things which I know much surely go... Up/Down branching, dealing with bar branches, whorls of branches.... Take things back to the inner most growth so you can work on getting it to pop back where I really want it. Then I let it be if it's not obvious to me, and take my time and let it be happy in my care. Bonsai isn't a sprint... for all that people love 'instant' bonsai. Take the long view, and you'll get positive results more consistently.

V