Dwarf Pomegranate (pics) Advise?

[SlowMovingWaters]

First let me start off by saying this is a online store bought bonsai and not professionally styled/grown/ect. Don't expect it to have good taper, any nebari, or even be well shaped.

I've never owned a bonsai before but I am a student of horticulture so we are starting with more knowledge about plant care than your average "I know nothing about plants help me keep this alive" type of post. I have no doubts about my ability to keep this alive plant alive a happy after a reading a bit more about bonsai specific care/soil ect.

Questions

What would be a good beginners bonsai book specifically for indoor bonsai care with lights?

I have a indoor grow area powered by a 300 watt 50,000 lumen 2'x4' T5 light fixture, where various tropical plants are grown. Pomegranate's are not hardy to my hardiness zone 5 area so it needs to either be grown outside during summer and brought indoors for winter or be totally indoor.

Let's just leave it at the one question for now and see how things go from there.

Pics

A few shots of my new Dwarf Pomegranate (Punica Granatum nana)

Any idea what this soil is? One thing for sure it is vary well draining.

It doesn't seem to have any real defined front. The twin trunk is a nice though.

Here is a pic of my at the moment sad indoor tropical grow tent. Temps always 65-85 *F

 

[milehigh_7]

It should do fine under your light, however as soon as temps stay above 40F at night start transitioning it outside. It can take as much sun and heat as you will be able to provide it. Fast draining soil as you have alluded to and the other thing is that if they are not in the ground these just grow painfully slow.

If you are going to shape it clip and grow is the best as the branches become brittle quite quickly. They don't like "wet feet".

 

[JudyB]

There are a number of good books on bonsai in general. Depends on what you want out of the book. Are you planning on more than this tree? Or do you just want to keep this one alive?

If the former, then Deborah Koreshoff's "Bonsai" is good, among others.
If the latter, perhaps something like Colin Lewis's "Bonsai Survival Manual" will help.

Welcome to the forum and the addiction...

 

[SlowMovingWaters]

Hello everyone, thank you for the warm welcome.

Mil - I was leaning more towards it being a indoor only bonsai. However, temps in that range don't start around here till june first or so, plenty of time to decide. As far as shaping goes it doesn't have an established branch structure (is ramification the word) most internode's (space between each leaf) are elongated enough to make me want to cut back quite a bit. Maybe even remove the weaker trunk all together, cut back to the first visible leaf node, then clip and grow from there. How does that sound?

Judy - At the moment I can't really give a definite answer to your question. If I do continue with bonsai (hopping to) it would be more so indoors with smaller (shohin?) style bonsai. I live in the far north east where the root ball will surely freeze totally for 7-8 months out of the year. Either way thank you for the books I'll check into each.

Here's a link to an article from Jack Wikle who has been growing bonsai 100% indoors with artificial lighting since 1976. http://www.annarborbonsaisociety.org/documents/FluLgtBonsaiWithPic.pdf

 

[SlowMovingWaters]

Just a small update on the pomegranate. I chopped the weaker trunk and cut back all branches to a few leaf sets.

Before (same view as after photo)

After

Goal - can't draw for crap but here's the basic idea

I had a lot of fun choosing which branches to cut back and remove. Over all this was a vary enjoyable experience now all there is to do is let it grow.

As a side note the soil in the pot is not little rocks as seen in the photo's about one 1/4 inch down is regular potting mix. Will this need to be removed for a better medium?

 

[Poink88]

If this is mine, I will chop the trunk and branch down to the last pair of branches, treat the subsequent branches the same and cut them back to the last pair of nodes but no longer than 1".

It will look ugly right after but you will have a much better and proper branch structure in the future.

Most newbie (including me) error is just looking at the final shape and forgetting how the structure should be to properly get there. Last thing you want to have (in a few years) is a nice branch ramification but the one supporting it is a long and straight branch (what you currently have now).

Something like this. I know it is hard to see now but it will be a better tree.
View attachment 30470

 

[october]

Hello and welcome SMW. Your indoor set up looks good. In regards to this tree and your other trees. They are all very young. Too young to do any real work. They need a few more years, maybe 4-5, before they can start their training.

In your area, I think you might be happier keeping conifers for bonsai instead of tropicals/subtropicals. If you keep tropicals, they are continuous work throughout the year. Also, with your climate, there is the threat of frost even later in the year. If you go with species like juniper and pine. They can stay outside most of the year. In winter, you would just need to provide some winter protection. You would also get a break, from watering, having to provide light and other bonsai tasks.

Rob

 

[SlowMovingWaters]

If this is mine, I will chop the trunk and branch down to the last pair of branches, treat the subsequent branches the same and cut them back to the last pair of nodes but no longer than 1".

It will look ugly right after but you will have a much better and proper branch structure in the future.

Most newbie (including me) error is just looking at the final shape and forgetting how the structure should be to properly get there. Last thing you want to have (in a few years) is a nice branch ramification but the one supporting it is a long and straight branch (what you currently have now).

Something like this. I know it is hard to see now but it will be a better tree.
View attachment 30470

The reason I didn't cut back as far as you example is pomegranate at least from what I've read are tough to back bud. Trunk chopping can kill the tree. Basically ever branch needs to have at least one set of leaves on it to be safe. Then if it back buds further down after the "safer pruning" cut back to the new lower buds.

I really do appreciate your advise. If it does back bud lower on the truck and/or more twiggy branches I certainly will cut back further.

 

[SlowMovingWaters]

Hello and welcome SMW. Your indoor set up looks good. In regards to this tree and your other trees. They are all very young. Too young to do any real work. They need a few more years, maybe 4-5, before they can start their training.

In your area, I think you might be happier keeping conifers for bonsai instead of tropicals/subtropicals. If you keep tropicals, they are continuous work throughout the year. Also, with your climate, there is the threat of frost even later in the year. If you go with species like juniper and pine. They can stay outside most of the year. In winter, you would just need to provide some winter protection. You would also get a break, from watering, having to provide light and other bonsai tasks.

Rob

Can you expand a bit further on what you mean by provide some winter protection?

 

[october]

Sure.. If you decide to go with conifers, such as pines and junipers. These trees need a winter dormancy period. Actually, all trees benefit from some sort of rest period. For pines, junipers and deciduous trees like maples. They need to be in a few months of cold temperatures to rest. Optimal conditions are around 32-40 degrees F. However, temps in the upper 20s and temps in the lower 40's are fine. During this dormancy period. These trees need very little light and very little water. Some people use a shed, unheated garage or even a greenhouse for this. In certain zones, some people just bury the pots in the ground and mulch over them for the winter. We provide winter protection because bonsai, since they are in pots and small, need more protection than the trees growing in the landscape or forest. So although we still need to provide winter conditions for them. We need to protect them from strong, drying winter winds, hail, and periods or heavy rain and storms.

Rob

 

[Poink88]

The reason I didn't cut back as far as you example is pomegranate at least from what I've read are tough to back bud. Trunk chopping can kill the tree. Basically ever branch needs to have at least one set of leaves on it to be safe. Then if it back buds further down after the "safer pruning" cut back to the new lower buds.

I really do appreciate your advise. If it does back bud lower on the truck and/or more twiggy branches I certainly will cut back further.

For me they back bud really well. Too much actually.

I had a few that I collected last year that was more than 5' tall (but all very lanky and only 1" or so in diameter). I chopped them all down to a few inches tall w/o any leaves left. All survived and shot lots of branches. Still "naked" but some are sprouting leaves now.

 

[SlowMovingWaters]

Sure.. If you decide to go with conifers, such as pines and junipers. These trees need a winter dormancy period. Actually, all trees benefit from some sort of rest period. For pines, junipers and deciduous trees like maples. They need to be in a few months of cold temperatures to rest. Optimal conditions are around 32-40 degrees F. However, temps in the upper 20s and temps in the lower 40's are fine. During this dormancy period. These trees need very little light and very little water. Some people use a shed, unheated garage or even a greenhouse for this. In certain zones, some people just bury the pots in the ground and mulch over them for the winter. We provide winter protection because bonsai, since they are in pots and small, need more protection than the trees growing in the landscape or forest. So although we still need to provide winter conditions for them. We need to protect them from strong, drying winter winds, hail, and periods or heavy rain and storms.

Rob

Would this work for non coniferous tree's? The reason I ask is I live in the pine tree state where ever one looks is a pine/hemlock/juniper/spruce forest. Same old thing all the time gets boring. One of my main reasons for starting with a semi tropical bonsai was to enjoy species which can not be grown here especially flowering varieties. If an unheated shed/greenhouse would be enough protection for conifers maybe local flowering varieties of rhododendron or something similar might be possible? I'm building a hoop style GH (unheated) for starting veggies and rooting blueberry cuttings this april an extra 4' on the end with some sort of table may be enough space for at least a few smaller bonsai. Although I'm not sure how much protection a unheated shed/gh would be when night time temps get down to -25* F during the worst part of winter. This is a hardiness zone 4/5 bordering area.

Opinions?

 

[SlowMovingWaters]

For me they back bud really well. Too much actually.

I had a few that I collected last year that was more than 5' tall (but all very lanky and only 1" or so in diameter). I chopped them all down to a few inches tall w/o any leaves left. All survived and shot lots of branches. Still "naked" but some are sprouting leaves now.

Interesting most reports I'd read said exactly the opposite. We'll just have to see what happens for now it needs to recover from shipping in sub 0 degree weather (the shop called explaining they had to wait till march to ship due to sub 0 weather then shipped it anyways a week later go figure)

 

[october]

Would this work for non coniferous tree's? The reason I ask is I live in the pine tree state where ever one looks is a pine/hemlock/juniper/spruce forest. Same old thing all the time gets boring. One of my main reasons for starting with a semi tropical bonsai was to enjoy species which can not be grown here especially flowering varieties. If an unheated shed/greenhouse would be enough protection for conifers maybe local flowering varieties of rhododendron or something similar might be possible? I'm building a hoop style GH (unheated) for starting veggies and rooting blueberry cuttings this april an extra 4' on the end with some sort of table may be enough space for at least a few smaller bonsai. Although I'm not sure how much protection a unheated shed/gh would be when night time temps get down to -25* F during the worst part of winter. This is a hardiness zone 4/5 bordering area.

Opinions?

Well, -25 is too much for any bonsai. If you go with azaleas and maples..mid 30's to mid 40's would be fine. Tropicals do better with a period of rest. However, A period of rest for them is maybe in the 50's and 60's for a couple/few months. However, this is something that requires research and experience. Tropicals can be finiky. They would need to gradually be introduces to this cooler period. Just like when the seasons change naturally.

How much cold a tree can take depends on many fractors, species, variety being the 2 main factors. However, age of the tree, size of the tree, health and pot size are all factors as well. Your trees are very young and probably should be given slightly more protection than if they were older established trees.

Tropicals such as ficus, fukien tee and gardenia, could not be left outside, even with winter protection. They also could not be left in an area that gets below 50 for long periods of time. However, sub tropicals such as chinese elms can tolerate more cold. Azaleas and the like can be in those temps as well. However, with temps as low as your area, -25, you would need to provide much protection for any species you grow. However, as mentioned, if you go with pines and junipers. They can be fine right down to the 20's or even teens. However, as mentioned, this depends on size, health and age of the tree.

Rob

 

[milehigh_7]

Pomes in the ground can take mid 20's in pots I shelter them below 30F. They do back bud really well but only where there are latent buds. So if the base was lanky with long inter-nodes you will have a tough time, they are not elms.

 

[Poink88]

Pomes in the ground can take mid 20's in pots I shelter them below 30F. They do back bud really well but only where there are latent buds. So if the base was lanky with long inter-nodes you will have a tough time, they are not elms.

I'd be honest, I collected mine w/o knowing or reading about them (luckily it seems). I just happened on it at Craigslist to be removed (re-landscaping as usual) and I thought I will get a nice sized one due to the height but all it was a clump of thin shoots like bamboo.

Had I read the same info...I might not had the courage to chop them as hard as I did. They look much nicer small/short IMHO than tall and lanky. They grew really well and even ramified nicely but lost all leaves during winter and naked right now. I probably should take some pics and post.

 

[discusmike]

Put it into a larger container and let it grow for a few years,as said the tree is to young to do much to,you will just slow the growth even more by working on it at this stage.

 

[SlowMovingWaters]

Well, -25 is too much for any bonsai. If you go wihth azaleas and maples..mid 30's to mid 40's would be fine. Tropicals do better with a period of rest. However, A period of rest for them is maybe in the 50's and 60's for a couple/few months. However, this is something that requires research and experience. Tropicals can be finiky. They would need to gradually be introduces to this cooler period. Just like when the seasons change naturally.

How much cold a tree can take depends on many fractors, species, variety being the 2 main factors. However, age of the tree, size of the tree, health and pot size are all factors as well. Your trees are very young and probably should be given slightly more protection than if they were older established trees.

Tropicals such as ficus, fukien tee and gardenia, could not be left outside, even with winter protection. They also could not be left in an area that gets below 50 for long periods of time. However, sub tropicals such as chinese elms can tolerate more cold. Azaleas and the like can be in those temps as well. However, with temps as low as your area, -25, you would need to provide much protection for any species you grow. However, as mentioned, if you go with pines and junipers. They can be fine right down to the 20's or even teens. However, as mentioned, this depends on size, health and age of the tree.

Rob

Thanks for this post! Even if the information is a bit saddening since I won't be able to bonsai outdoors even with a shed/greenhouse it wouldn't matter because neither are heated. Although I do wonder how local bonsaist and/or bonsai stores protect their tree's...

 

[SlowMovingWaters]

Pomes in the ground can take mid 20's in pots I shelter them below 30F. They do back bud really well but only where there are latent buds. So if the base was lanky with long inter-nodes you will have a tough time, they are not elms.

Pomagranate is not hardy to my state so planting in the ground wont happen.

 

[SlowMovingWaters]

Put it into a larger container and let it grow for a few years,as said the tree is to young to do much to,you will just slow the growth even more by working on it at this stage.

The point is not to have a large developed tree. As with any other new to bonsai person purchasing their first bonsai at walmart or whatever store it's more of a test run to see if I have the patience to take care of a tree every day.